Activa owners, Do yourself and me a Favour..........

Pleiades · Post by **Pleiades** » 04 Nov 2008, 18:54

Hi All.

I have had someone going close to tears over the price of the bush in the Xantia Activa, active ride ram. 517113 currently selling at about £140!!!

Does anyone (Jim) have one of the offending bushes? As I am sure that I could get these made, I just need a pattern, .

I think that the price would end up being a fraction of the Cit price.

The guy that does all my rubber moulding for DS gaiters, diaphragms etc tells me that he makes lots of bushes of this kind for vintage Rollers and the bush that we need should be quite easy to sort.

Anybody that has been unfortunate enough to have purchased the bush from Citroen and still has the old naffed one lying around, could you please get in touch.

Regards
Martin.

01487 831239

Post by **CitroJim** » 04 Nov 2008, 20:38

That'll be great Martin

I've a brand-new one here and I'll pop it into the post to you tomorrow..

When I got my first Activa, I made one from moly-filled nylon-66 on the lathe. It worked well although it was a tad noisier than the genuine article. If I'd have machined it a bit tighter it would have been even better. Even then it lasted a year before I fitted a genuine bush.

One of these substitutes will tide your tearful owner over until a proper one turns up..

Very happy to help Martin.

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 04 Nov 2008, 21:11

Hi Martin,

I did have someone try to make up one of these bushes some time ago, like your contact he made bushes for a living so I sent him my old bush but when he dismantled it (IIRC) he found that there was collar/ring inside it or something along those lines which made it very difficult to replicate. I think another issue was that the rubber between the metal collars was so thin that he came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort, which in some ways may go to explain why Citroën put the price up by so much!

Post by **CitroJim** » 04 Nov 2008, 21:50

DickieG wrote:...he came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort, which in some ways may go to explain why Citroën put the price up by so much!

Was that back in the days they were about £15 from Citroen Richard? Albeit with a long wait

Now they are ten times that much, it may well be worth looking into having some made again...

I can see why they'd need that ridge as the bush has a lateral locating role in addition to the up/down load. In my home-made bush I overcame the lateral ocation issue by making it a tight fit in the ram eye and cutting the width of the bush to be a tight fit in the roll bar yoke.

I've just retrieved a well-worn bush so I'll send that as well Martin, along with the brand new bush and an example of my home-made bush, in fact the one that did a years duty in my last Activa. If you want to let the tearful owner have my home-made bush as a stop-gap, please do. I've got plenty of raw material to make more.

This thread gives a bit more detail of my home-made one.

EDIT: My prediction that the bush would not last was wrong. It did in fact, last very well!

handyman · Post by **handyman** » 04 Nov 2008, 22:24

I'm still running a home-made PTFE bush in my rear ram and as yet it shows no sign of wear.

Handyman

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 04 Nov 2008, 22:36

Thanks for thinking about this Martin, and offering the help.

Pleiades · Post by **Pleiades** » 04 Nov 2008, 23:18

Thanks for all the replys and kind offers of help on this.

I realy do belive that someone in the Citroen network put the decimal point in the wrong place when it came to the repricing of these bushes, now this is something that will never be corrected.

As for the solid bush, the trouble here is that as well as the small amount of rotation, there is also the slight sideways motion, a solid bush will not give this and wear out quicker, but its better than £140 + even if you have to make one one every year or so.

Hopefully there will be some positive news on the horizon soon.

My rubber moulding guy says that he can also re vulcanise engine mounts but these are still available at the moment.

As allways we are allways looking into new bits to sort out as this is what keeps us in business and after all, it's better than working for a living!

Regards
Martin.

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 05 Nov 2008, 06:18

citrojim wrote:
DickieG wrote:...he came to the conclusion that it wasn't worth the effort, which in some ways may go to explain why Citroën put the price up by so much!
Was that back in the days they were about £15 from Citroen Richard? Albeit with a long wait Now they are ten times that much, it may well be worth looking into having some made again...

No, he contacted me after I wrote an article in the Citronean magazine about the 1000% price increase to £150 which he like all of us thought was ridiculous until he tried to make one himself, as I say he made bushes for a living.

handyman · Post by **handyman** » 05 Nov 2008, 08:48

With a few years of experience in engineering design, I fail to see how Citroen can justify a price of £150 for a bonded rubber bush, irrespective of its technical qualities. They are using it as a cash cow and milking Activa owners for a badly engineered product. Not everything they do is right.

If there is enough interest, I can cost up a run of bushes, using the system I have adopted using a spigoted outer sleeve and two floating PTFE bushes. As PTFE is not as hard as Nylon 66, al la Jim's mod, is does have some flexibility and is considerably tougher than vulcanised rubber. It is ideally suited to absorb the shocks imposed by the movement of the ram.

I have used similar floating PTFE bushes in suspension systems for road racing and motocross bikes, rally cars and currently use this type of PTFE bush in the front wishbones of my Marlin kitcar.

Handyman

Pleiades · Post by **Pleiades** » 05 Nov 2008, 12:06

Hi Handyman

We did think of the PTFE as we use it a lot for making seals, the trouble is, were as PTFE has excellent sliding properties it has no flex and you need this in a suspension bush.

PTFE will be perfect for any ram application ie; sliding in and out.

I remember that lots of firms offer a poly bush kit for land rovers etc to replace the traditional style rubber bush, but people using thes say that they give a very hard ride and vibration is worse. Although how you would tell the difference in a land rover is unbelivable.

Regards
Martin.

handyman · Post by **handyman** » 05 Nov 2008, 13:54

Hello Martin, I agree with alot of your comments, but you are wrong about no flex in the material. Check out some of the technical specs on the material. Deflection gets better as it gets hotter.

However, the design of the bonded rubber bush for the ram is all WRONG. If you replicate it, it will fail in the same way. As the end of the ram needs to rotate with suspension deflection, the bush at that point must be able to rotate as well. The Citroen bonded bush relies on the ability of the bonded rubber to deform, a task it is not capable of considering the amount of suspension travel required. Hence the relatively short life, especially considering it diminutive dimensions.

In my bush, I have used two sliding surfaces. The fixed sleeves are the liner in the ram eye and the sleeve fixed by the bolt. The two PTFE bobbins are free to move, although they are machined to close tolerances. As the ram moves through its travel, the sleeves and bushes are able to rotate. There is no stress created, unlike in the bonded bush.

As PTFE is corrosion resistant, has a non-adhesive surface, is wear resistant, can operate in a wide range of temperatures, 0-260 deg.C and has good tensile strength, I think it admirably suited to this application. I have been using it in similar applications for the last 30 plus years and it has never failed.

I rest my case!

As for these hard nylon or poly bushes used as replacements for bonded rubber in other lesser vehicles, they will transmit shock load (vibration) as they are clamped tight to the two components and not free to rotate as the suspension moves. Another case of unsuitable materials replacing a bad design.

Handyman

Gammy leg · Post by **Gammy leg** » 05 Nov 2008, 14:01

I'm with Handyman on this. A compelling case backed up by long term anecdotal evidence.

Gammy

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 05 Nov 2008, 20:42

I'm sure I've read somewhere that it is believed that the price hike to £150 per bush is due to an error in the pricing and that the decimal point is in the wrong place. It should be £15.0.

Handyman, If you were able to make up some PTFE bushes then count me in. I'd be interested.

Koukku · Post by **Koukku** » 18 Dec 2008, 18:05

Any news on the PTFE bushes? I would be interested to buy a couple too if you ever manage to produce these.

handyman · Post by **handyman** » 18 Dec 2008, 22:08

Hello Koukku, the PTFE rear ram bushes are due to be available in the beginning of the New Year. There are one or two issues I am waiting to get resolved and then the first production run will commence. Costings are looking much more realistic than the rip-off price Citroen are charging, even with hi-spec materials.

If you are interested, and that goes for anybody else that may want them, send an email to activasussex@fsmail.net and you will be put on the list.

Handyman