Xantia starting problems

lazza · Post by **lazza** » 08 Sep 2008, 13:15

HI

I recently bought a Citroen Xantia 1.9TD. It has stuggled starting. I have replaced the glow plugs, and it seems like it´s taking in air.

When i squeeze the priming pump, when the engine is cold diesel comes out of the top of the pump and slightly out of the oval shaped plate right down the back of it near the engine.

Once the vehicle has eventually started, it runs perfectly.. which is confusing ??

Do i need to change the pump? another thing is I cant seem to find a bleed screw. I undid the fuel return pipe at the right-hand top of the pump according to the Haynes manual, but cant seem to get fuel out of there...?

Any help/advise would be much appreciated

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 08 Sep 2008, 14:22

Bosch pumps are self bleeding, so there isn't a bleed screw.
If you've got any breaks in seals, the diesel will run back into the engine as air enters the fuel lines, making starting difficult.

Is there any chance you could post photos of where the diesel is coming out of the pump?
Although one of the resident pump experts probably know exactly where you're talking about

Post by **CitroJim** » 08 Sep 2008, 16:47

Hi lazza and welcome to the forum

A leaky pump will give starting difficulties in precisely the same way as perished leakoff pipes will. It allows the pump to empty of diesel when standing and thus the pump has to be reprimed for a start.

If you can pump the primer and see diesel leaking out, it is leaking very badly.

Just before condemming the pump though, do check the fuel return line is clear by slipping it off and blowing down it. You should be able to make bubbles in the tank fairly easily. This line does block from time to time and that severely increases pressures in the pump and leads to leaks.

The pumps leak from the oval timing device covers (as is yours), from the rotor housing, the top cover and the throttle shaft.

All these are O rings and they are available and cheap to buy. Unfortunately, apart from the oval covers, the rest of the seals are hard to renew. It can be done but the armouring has to be removed and this is a job fraught with some risk. There is a risk of breaking the distributor drive shaft and the pump is then scrap.

Once the armour is off, the top seals can be done but the rotor head seal remains very difficult.

To give you an idea of the job, have a look at this Web Page

It is a job best left to the professionals. It is rare I say that!

lazza · Post by **lazza** » 09 Sep 2008, 08:12

HI,

thanks very much for your replies. The stripping of the pump looks fascinating, but as I'm a first timer as it were, it may be better to get a second-hand pump. One question, my pump has the numbers R 445-8 XUD213... do I have to get a pump with exactly the same numbers?

I will try the fuel return pipe thing. Although as I plan to convert it to veggie oil, I need to make sure the pump is in good condition before starting, particularly as it´s known to cause problems!

I will try to get a couple of pics

thanks again
Larry

Post by **CitroJim** » 09 Sep 2008, 08:34

lazza wrote:One question, my pump has the numbers R 445-8 XUD213... do I have to get a pump with exactly the same numbers?

Hi Larry,

No, as long as you get a similar pump you'll be OK. You don't say what year your Xantia is but there are three distinct types of pump, the fully mechanical pump fitted from 1993 until late'ish 1995 and a semi electronic type fitted from then on. The semi-electronic type can be identified by the car having an ECU and a round load pot on top if the pump with three wires existing it (the mechanical pump normally has a microswitch in this position). There are two breeds of semi-electronic pumps but they differ only in the immobiliser. Later MK1 cars had the keypad whereas MK2 cars had a chip/key RF immobiliser. These pumps are interchangable if you swap immobiliser modules. If you get a second-hand pump from a keypad car, try to get the keypad and the code that goes with it. If push comes to shove, get the armour removed, remove the immobiliser from the stop solenoid (it just clamps around it) and run a switched ignition supply to the stop solenoid or swap the immobiliser module from your present pump to the replacement.

It is also possible to replace a semi-electronic pump with a mechanical pump. The ECU has to be left in place to look after the tacho, temperature gauge, fast idle and glowplug control. What you cannot do is run a semi-electronic pump without an ECU. It will run but the timing will be fixed at a fully retarded point and it will have no auto-advance with increasing speed. Retrofitting an ECU is possible but daunting.

So yes, the pumps, with provisos, are pretty much interchangable.

Do you need any advice for replacing a pump? It's a straightforward enough job but you need a special tool to pull the sprocket off the pump which is easily made, a "C" shaped spanner , very long slim fingers and a very healthy does of patience!

Running veg sems to make leaks worse so it's wise to start off with a good, tight pump. I reckon the thicker nature of veg increases the internal pressure in the pump which seeks out any small weaknesses in the seals.

Hope that helps a little Larry.

lazza · Post by **lazza** » 09 Sep 2008, 09:32

HI Jim

thanks very much for your detailed reply. Acutally I think mine is mechanical. I dont have an ECU and its a Citroen Xantia 1.9TD 1996.

Also not sure I have armour around the stop solenoid. Will this make changing the seals much easier??

My main concern is having to readjust the timing once I put the pump back on.. is this something you could advise me on if I get to that point?

It´s great to have some detailed info, I´m actually in Spain, and the mechanics here all shake their heads and suck through their teeth

and dont really offer me much assistance

cheers
Lazza

Post by **Peter.N.** » 09 Sep 2008, 09:47

If you mark the flange of the pump and the mounting plate, mark the replacement in the same place it should be near enough correct. I have found that the best way of setting the timing is by ear. Listen to the sound yours is making now at various revs and try to remember it, or listen to another car. If it is to advanced it will knock excessively, to retarded, it will be difficult to start and quieter.

If you put the locking bolts in the pump drive sprocket, you can remove the pump without disturbing the timing belt.

I personally think that the best pump is the Bosch, but if you fit one and yours is a Lucas/CAV you will have to change the injector pipes as well as they differ in injection order.