Hi All
I'm afraid I need some more of this forum's wisdom!
After a brief smattering of what could be called snow in the midlands (also shown by the fact the country has ground to a halt!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>), my trusty ZX ('94 TD) has failed to start today for the first time.
Basically the car cranks over v..e..r..y slowly<img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle> and doesn't fire up. All the suitable lights appear and disappear on the dash and all of the electrical components have been switched off before cranking ie fan, radio, etc. All the lights on the dash dim/flicker as I try to start the old lump.
Is there a fail-proof method of testing your battery to see if it has died before I shell out for a new battery as I don't trust Kiwk Fit or Halfords to tell the truth, for want of a sale!
It is worth noting it has been like this over the winter months (few more cranks than usual before the engine catches and runs).
Ta!
Ben<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>
PS Does anyone in the UK know roughly how much a battery costs from Half**ds - I know, I know, but when you need car parts quickly, Halfords in most cases is the only alternative!
TD Battery Testing
Moderator: RichardW
Hi Ben,
I don't know about batteries from Halford, but at Andys they range from £26.5 for a 36amp to £39.5 for a 60amp.
One way to test a battery, is with a Hydrometer to test the electrolyte specific gravity. You should have a reading between 1.270 to 1.290 fully charged, 1.230 to 1.250 70% charged and 1.110 to 1.130 Flat. You can buy a meter from Halfords, also they do one for Antifreeze.
If your battery has enough to turn the motor over a few times without stopping, it could mean your glow/heater plugs are not working. Another thing to check is to see if your battery is not a maintenance free type, is there any water in the cells, if not then they need Distilled water (Not Tap Water) also if you only do short journeys with the headlamps, heater, back window heater and wipers all on or nearly all on, you are not giving the battery much chance, especially in slow/standstill traffic.
But if its as bad as you say where the lights flicker you could lose your code for the radio and it sounds if the battery is really flat.
Sooty <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
I don't know about batteries from Halford, but at Andys they range from £26.5 for a 36amp to £39.5 for a 60amp.
One way to test a battery, is with a Hydrometer to test the electrolyte specific gravity. You should have a reading between 1.270 to 1.290 fully charged, 1.230 to 1.250 70% charged and 1.110 to 1.130 Flat. You can buy a meter from Halfords, also they do one for Antifreeze.
If your battery has enough to turn the motor over a few times without stopping, it could mean your glow/heater plugs are not working. Another thing to check is to see if your battery is not a maintenance free type, is there any water in the cells, if not then they need Distilled water (Not Tap Water) also if you only do short journeys with the headlamps, heater, back window heater and wipers all on or nearly all on, you are not giving the battery much chance, especially in slow/standstill traffic.
But if its as bad as you say where the lights flicker you could lose your code for the radio and it sounds if the battery is really flat.
Sooty <img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
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Sounds like battery to me from what you say. However it might be your charging curcuit. Is your alternator belt tight? Is your warning lamp glowing dimly and coming on and off slowly? - if so you may have an alternator problem. Are all the connections (battery terminals and earth wires) good and uncorroded?
If you have a voltmeter put it accross the battery terminals with the engine running. If the voltage is in the middle 13's your charging is probably ok. If its not you will find that the prevailing voltage is about 11.5 and the cause is the alternator. In between - look at ALL connections - because thats where the problem is!
A good battery will turn an engine for a very long time, a bad one for just enough for one start and a good starting engine will disguise a bad battery. Had one go at work the other day on my BX - I know I should have replaced it last September when I became suspicious of it. New one makes a world of difference.
Another symptom of low overall voltage (ie charging problem) can be a slow indicator flash but I'm not sure all flasher units are so affected. A good but undercharged battery will again turn the engine for a long time albeit slowly.
Get it tested before you buy unless you can get one so cheap from a source without a tester that you aren't worried. Halfords have a web site and I would expect the battery prices to be on there. One of Andy's well known rivals also sells batterys and has prices on their website.
Jeremy
If you have a voltmeter put it accross the battery terminals with the engine running. If the voltage is in the middle 13's your charging is probably ok. If its not you will find that the prevailing voltage is about 11.5 and the cause is the alternator. In between - look at ALL connections - because thats where the problem is!
A good battery will turn an engine for a very long time, a bad one for just enough for one start and a good starting engine will disguise a bad battery. Had one go at work the other day on my BX - I know I should have replaced it last September when I became suspicious of it. New one makes a world of difference.
Another symptom of low overall voltage (ie charging problem) can be a slow indicator flash but I'm not sure all flasher units are so affected. A good but undercharged battery will again turn the engine for a long time albeit slowly.
Get it tested before you buy unless you can get one so cheap from a source without a tester that you aren't worried. Halfords have a web site and I would expect the battery prices to be on there. One of Andy's well known rivals also sells batterys and has prices on their website.
Jeremy
Cheers people
I'll get the car jump-started tomorrow and go and get it tested. That should get me started on the problem. Hopefully only the battery will be at fault!
I've been doing relatively short journeys recently from 2 miles to 15 miles with heavy electrical loads (stereo at full blast, headlights, heater element, etc) so I might not have been giving the car a good enough chance to recharge!
Saying this, would it be worthwhile waiting until Staturday as I will be travelling approx 150 miles from Wolv to Reading on Friday evening so the battery should have ample time to charge. If I do do this, I'll just have to hope that the car will start on Friday eve!
Guess I could pop in to GSF in Reading and pick up a new battery, should I need one!
All 4 glow plugs were changed within the last year so they should be OK. Lord knows I'm not taking the No.1 (near timing belt) out again! The relay also seems OK as the light on the d/board goes out of 10-15 seconds.
Jeremey - "A good but undercharged battery will again turn the engine for a long time albeit slowly." It sounds like this has happened as the engine does crank but very slowly.
Thanks for the advice and will keep you updated!
Ben
PS Would getting a 60 amp battery be OK for the ZX or would it blow all the fuses in the car as everywhere I've seen, a 50 amp battery is recommended. With diesals, is it a case of the higher the amperage, the better?
I'll get the car jump-started tomorrow and go and get it tested. That should get me started on the problem. Hopefully only the battery will be at fault!
I've been doing relatively short journeys recently from 2 miles to 15 miles with heavy electrical loads (stereo at full blast, headlights, heater element, etc) so I might not have been giving the car a good enough chance to recharge!
Saying this, would it be worthwhile waiting until Staturday as I will be travelling approx 150 miles from Wolv to Reading on Friday evening so the battery should have ample time to charge. If I do do this, I'll just have to hope that the car will start on Friday eve!
Guess I could pop in to GSF in Reading and pick up a new battery, should I need one!
All 4 glow plugs were changed within the last year so they should be OK. Lord knows I'm not taking the No.1 (near timing belt) out again! The relay also seems OK as the light on the d/board goes out of 10-15 seconds.
Jeremey - "A good but undercharged battery will again turn the engine for a long time albeit slowly." It sounds like this has happened as the engine does crank but very slowly.
Thanks for the advice and will keep you updated!
Ben
PS Would getting a 60 amp battery be OK for the ZX or would it blow all the fuses in the car as everywhere I've seen, a 50 amp battery is recommended. With diesals, is it a case of the higher the amperage, the better?
A bigger battery will make no difference at all to the functioning of electrical components but really means that the system will have more stamina. In the past diesels were fitted with 90 AH or more batteries and LandRovers with minimal electrical systems used to have 2 6 volt batteries in series with a capacity of 120 AH. The voltage of a battery is determined by the number of cells. Using lead-acid chemistry a single cell will give about 2.2 volts fully charged, stabilise at about 2 volts under load and drop to about 1.8 when discharged. To achieve 12 volts nominal voltage 6 cells are connected in series (+ to -). To achieve a greater capacity the number of plates of lead and lead sulphate is increased and sometimes batteries are referred to by the number of plates in each cell (eg 6 plate). The electrolyte is sulphuric acid and very briefly the reaction is the conversion of lead to lead sulphate. This reaction is reversible by the application of an electric current and as the cell is charged the strength of the acid increases. You can measure the strength of the acid using a hydrometer (a float in what amounts to a syringe) and determine the state of charge. I believe I have seen simplified versions of hydrometers using coloured balls in a smaller syringe and you draw off some acid, see how many balls are floating and determine the charge from a table.
The lead and lead sulphate is deposited on the plates in a spongy form to increase the surface area and increase the capacity. As the battery deteriorates the sponge breaks down and the sulphate cystals get bigger so reducing the efficiency of the battery and its capacity. As you will see from what I have said above the voltage fully charged will not change but the length of time that it will function at that voltage will.
If the car starter will wind the car over for a long period slowly this makes me suspect the alternator or other electrical problem and replacing the battery will only improve things for a few days. I would have thought the charging system would have been able to keep up if you use moderate revs but I did nearly have a Jaguar stop on me in snow when I realised that the voltage had dropped to about 10 because I was travelling with the engine at idle with everything running. I then drove home in intermediate gear and everything was OK. That too was a relatively slow running engine (red line at 5000) and I would have expected the alternator to run at twice engine speed or more. (Alternators are safe for about 12000 revs and so run faster than engine speed to increase efficiency and provide charge at low engine revs)
You can usually get a clue from the behaviour of the electrical components - dim lights, slow wipers, quiet heater, slow indicators, innefective heated rear window, slow and sticky windows etc. Are you suffering these? does the alternator light wink in the dark especially under load? If it did I think you would have noticed it although it can be quite dim.
Jeremy
The lead and lead sulphate is deposited on the plates in a spongy form to increase the surface area and increase the capacity. As the battery deteriorates the sponge breaks down and the sulphate cystals get bigger so reducing the efficiency of the battery and its capacity. As you will see from what I have said above the voltage fully charged will not change but the length of time that it will function at that voltage will.
If the car starter will wind the car over for a long period slowly this makes me suspect the alternator or other electrical problem and replacing the battery will only improve things for a few days. I would have thought the charging system would have been able to keep up if you use moderate revs but I did nearly have a Jaguar stop on me in snow when I realised that the voltage had dropped to about 10 because I was travelling with the engine at idle with everything running. I then drove home in intermediate gear and everything was OK. That too was a relatively slow running engine (red line at 5000) and I would have expected the alternator to run at twice engine speed or more. (Alternators are safe for about 12000 revs and so run faster than engine speed to increase efficiency and provide charge at low engine revs)
You can usually get a clue from the behaviour of the electrical components - dim lights, slow wipers, quiet heater, slow indicators, innefective heated rear window, slow and sticky windows etc. Are you suffering these? does the alternator light wink in the dark especially under load? If it did I think you would have noticed it although it can be quite dim.
Jeremy
Thanks Jeremy (sorry about mis-typing your name earlier!) for your detailed explanation on batteries.
All the electrical items work fine so I don't think the alternator is at fault. Since I do most of my driving in the evening, I would see any lights flash up on the dash and none do - except the low fuel warning bulb!
At the moment, I have borrowed my neighbour's trickle charger so I'll run that overnight on the battery and see what happens in the morning. If I can get the car going, I'll drive to Reading on Saturday and get myself a new battery. Half**ds wanted 60 odd pounds for a own-brand battery which I baulked at, compared to Andyspares prices!
I think the battery is the original supplied with the Citroen and seeing that the car is practically 9 years old and the recent cold weather, I would think it would be due for a change soon.
Battery is a Lucas type 013 with a Cold Crank Ampage of 420A (S.A.E) and 300A (I.E.C) whatever these are. It doesn't give an ampage of the values 36 - 60 as suggested by the Andy Spares catalogue so which type should I go for?
All the electrical items work fine so I don't think the alternator is at fault. Since I do most of my driving in the evening, I would see any lights flash up on the dash and none do - except the low fuel warning bulb!
At the moment, I have borrowed my neighbour's trickle charger so I'll run that overnight on the battery and see what happens in the morning. If I can get the car going, I'll drive to Reading on Saturday and get myself a new battery. Half**ds wanted 60 odd pounds for a own-brand battery which I baulked at, compared to Andyspares prices!
I think the battery is the original supplied with the Citroen and seeing that the car is practically 9 years old and the recent cold weather, I would think it would be due for a change soon.
Battery is a Lucas type 013 with a Cold Crank Ampage of 420A (S.A.E) and 300A (I.E.C) whatever these are. It doesn't give an ampage of the values 36 - 60 as suggested by the Andy Spares catalogue so which type should I go for?
I thought I'd look in my Haynes ZX manual and see what was recommended - well they avoid the topic completely. The Haynes diesel manual recommends either 50 or 83 mp hour capacity. 83 is a huge battery and I think is fitted in countries much colder than our own. As far as I know the batteries in both of our cars (TD BX and straight ZX) are 50 or 55 AH and they seem perfectly adequate. I'm sure Andy's will advise.
9 years is a remarkable life for a battery and it has every right to fail!
The collosal amperage figures are a measure of performance under extreme conditions and are an indication of its starting ability under those conditions. The lead acid battery being dependant on a chemical reaction and as the temperature drops the reaction slows (quite dramatically - by half for every 10 degree drop until it all stops at minus 272 - so you can see that in Scandinavia or Canada these figures become important. I've never studied them but expect most batteries of similar size have a similar performance.
Hope your new battery cures it
Jeremy
9 years is a remarkable life for a battery and it has every right to fail!
The collosal amperage figures are a measure of performance under extreme conditions and are an indication of its starting ability under those conditions. The lead acid battery being dependant on a chemical reaction and as the temperature drops the reaction slows (quite dramatically - by half for every 10 degree drop until it all stops at minus 272 - so you can see that in Scandinavia or Canada these figures become important. I've never studied them but expect most batteries of similar size have a similar performance.
Hope your new battery cures it
Jeremy
Ben
One thing about the glow plug relay light on the dash board, don't be fooled thinking because the light is working the heaters are working. They have two different circuits, one for the light on the dash and one for the mechanical relay. It is common for light to be on for5/10secs depending on the temperature and approx. 2mins for the relay energising your heater plugs.
You can hear when the relay energises when switching the ignition on and de-energises after a time or hold the box and feel it click. This is simple check apart from using a voltage test meter to be sure.
But as you say you may not have given the battery much chance in recharging itself with your short journeys as I said with everything pulling for power. If you have a 60amp or bigger, the battery will be stronger with big amps. but it will still slowly drain under the same conditions as your present battery, albeit it will take longer. As Jeremy says this will effect your fuses etc.
I would have thought this is not the original battery as your know how fussy the french are, using a British(LUCAS)battery, unheard of ????????
Sooty
One thing about the glow plug relay light on the dash board, don't be fooled thinking because the light is working the heaters are working. They have two different circuits, one for the light on the dash and one for the mechanical relay. It is common for light to be on for5/10secs depending on the temperature and approx. 2mins for the relay energising your heater plugs.
You can hear when the relay energises when switching the ignition on and de-energises after a time or hold the box and feel it click. This is simple check apart from using a voltage test meter to be sure.
But as you say you may not have given the battery much chance in recharging itself with your short journeys as I said with everything pulling for power. If you have a 60amp or bigger, the battery will be stronger with big amps. but it will still slowly drain under the same conditions as your present battery, albeit it will take longer. As Jeremy says this will effect your fuses etc.
I would have thought this is not the original battery as your know how fussy the french are, using a British(LUCAS)battery, unheard of ????????
Sooty
I couldn't resist any longer after leaving the battery on a charger for a few hours. I installed the battery and the little beauty fired on the first crank!
I obviously let out a little cheer<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I just need to get the battery secured again as the bolt nearest the wing is secured using a nut that is placed under the bulkhead and the bolt was refusing to grip into it. Once I've done that, the car will will be taken for a 30 min run without any load to ensure it charges up as best as poss.
It didn't help that I was losing sunlight and couldn't really see what I was doing. I might try and use a magnet to bring the nut up to bolt hole and see if I can get it on that way. I will still probably get a new battery as it been quite slow to fire over the last couple of weeks! Looking at prices by various suppliers, I will probably get a 60A battery.
Cheers Sooty, Jeremy and Dave, for all of your advice.
Will keep you updated if any else happens!
Regards
Ben
I obviously let out a little cheer<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
I just need to get the battery secured again as the bolt nearest the wing is secured using a nut that is placed under the bulkhead and the bolt was refusing to grip into it. Once I've done that, the car will will be taken for a 30 min run without any load to ensure it charges up as best as poss.
It didn't help that I was losing sunlight and couldn't really see what I was doing. I might try and use a magnet to bring the nut up to bolt hole and see if I can get it on that way. I will still probably get a new battery as it been quite slow to fire over the last couple of weeks! Looking at prices by various suppliers, I will probably get a 60A battery.
Cheers Sooty, Jeremy and Dave, for all of your advice.
Will keep you updated if any else happens!
Regards
Ben
Final Update
I managed to get the motor up to Kw*t F*t where they did a free test on the battery and they said that it was on the way out (I stood nect to them while they did this to make sure I wasn't getting conned!)
The battery was holding half of the charge of a new battery and the cold snap we had then, would have wiped it anyway.The alternator was also checked and this turned out to be fine.
So I managed to get the car back to Reading where I bought a new battery for £39.50 - to £39.99 (Can't remember exactly!). Good value as Citroen wanted approx £65, Half*rds wanted £60 and Kw*it F*t wanted approx £50 inc. fitting!!!!!!
The ZX now fires up on the first crank without any sort of stutter at all so I am well chuffed.
Thanks to all for their advice!
Regards
Ben
I managed to get the motor up to Kw*t F*t where they did a free test on the battery and they said that it was on the way out (I stood nect to them while they did this to make sure I wasn't getting conned!)
The battery was holding half of the charge of a new battery and the cold snap we had then, would have wiped it anyway.The alternator was also checked and this turned out to be fine.
So I managed to get the car back to Reading where I bought a new battery for £39.50 - to £39.99 (Can't remember exactly!). Good value as Citroen wanted approx £65, Half*rds wanted £60 and Kw*it F*t wanted approx £50 inc. fitting!!!!!!
The ZX now fires up on the first crank without any sort of stutter at all so I am well chuffed.
Thanks to all for their advice!
Regards
Ben