Well at 110K the 1.9 NA Diesel engine in my 89 BX seems to be at the end of its life? The second cylinder is stuffed, the is oil seemingly coming through the injector, and the rocker leaks way too much. It blows when first accelerating in any gear, and seems to be loosing a little water. As i see it the rings have either come off or slipped, hence oil get passed the cylinder and out the injector? The head has gone causing water loss and the oil system gets over pressure caused by exhaust gasses?
Firstly is this an accurate diagnosis?
Again, from what i know and what i have been told, this is gonna be VERY expensive to fix. At least a set of rings and a head gasket, head bolts, but probly need the block cleaning/skimming, new linners, re boring and new pistons?
Based on this ive had quotes up to £1700!! i could buy a fleet of BX for that! But am i looking at this sort of work/cost to make her well?? Bare in mind, although im happy to do it with instruction, i have never had the head off!!
Having driven a 1.8TD golf yesterday, im thinking a turbo would be nice. On which grounds i cant see any point in getting a 1.7TD lump, it would seem like going backwards. The most obvious options are to stick a 1.9TD from a ZX in, or try and *find* a 2.2TD froma Xantia. Im desperately on the lookout for a 16v HDi, but i dont hold my hopes on that one <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
What are the likely problems of trying to put in a 1.9TD, a 2.2TD or a HDi (im guessing no one has done this yet?)? I will keep the current shell if it kills me! But at the same time i have little to no money!
As it stands i have the offer of a 1.7td (sometime next month), or a 1.9 with 145k from a MK1 BX.
What do i hae to do to keep the car legal? does it have to be re registered with the DVLA, or do they just change the engine number. As best i can tell they dont really care unless i stick a really small engine in and it drops the tax band. If i stick a 2.2td will i never be able to get a mechanic to look at it, screaming 'whats that, i aint touchin it'? How much are the insurance people gonna whine?
How long can i get away with driving on it as is?
Finally, thanks for reading, i know its a marathon post, and thanks for any assistance, its greatly appreciated!
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
Change of engine
Moderator: RichardW
-
tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Vanny, How much is your time worth? I have just done a head job on a 1.9 BX as you probably know.The oil in the exhaust, and all the other problems are head gasket failure, I'll be 99% certain. The bits (If you need to buy a torque wrench and a Haynes) will come to £100. The work would take a weekend or two.Now I am not saying that you will be as lucky as me but the thing that goes wrong with these lumps is the head gasket. If that is all right and the radiator is flushed out vigorously every couple of years, then the XUD9 will get you to the moon and back. It is a dirty, and fairly heavy job to do but it has a better than evens chance of fixing your engine. Insurers will multiply the premium by the number of chairs in the office just for thinking of putting a better engine in so don't go there unless you are too rich to own a BX. Buying a whole drivetrain is also a lottery because if the engine is sound, the BX around it is likely to be a going concern. There is a Diesel BX in the For sale column here that may be your best way out if you don't have time or confidence to behead the car but that is a £300 pound solution. You don't need to pull off the cam belt when doing the head gasket so It makes sense to use a weekend up in getting the old one off and checking it for cracks around the valves. Small cracks in the prechambers are to be expected and not to be worried about. Be brave!
Vanny,
I agree with Tom; better than even chance that you've popped a head gasket. It's not impossible to be the lower end unless of course you've done something pretty radical such as running dry on water or oil or both or found a way to rev its innards out. Bottom ends don't normally just "spit the dummy" unless, as I said, something pretty extreme has happened.
A couple of years ago I had a motor on a relatives Jap car go on me whilst driving; I threw it down a gear in a bit of a panic when a bike swerved out in front of me & forced me into oncoming traffic; the engine almost immediately ran slightly rough and when I accelerated after decelerating, a cloud of blue smoke came out teh back. It blew back through the filler cap something bad.
Upon pulling its head off, it was found that a small failure in the head gasket was the problem & the leakage included where the oil from the valve cover drained back to the sump which was why it blew smoke after decelerating.
As Tom suggested, whip the head off before you make any rash decisions about the motor & I'd suggest you try a post on Citroentech as I think there could be a couple of guys on there that own diesels & also possibly manuals who may be able to offer help if required.
Alan S
I agree with Tom; better than even chance that you've popped a head gasket. It's not impossible to be the lower end unless of course you've done something pretty radical such as running dry on water or oil or both or found a way to rev its innards out. Bottom ends don't normally just "spit the dummy" unless, as I said, something pretty extreme has happened.
A couple of years ago I had a motor on a relatives Jap car go on me whilst driving; I threw it down a gear in a bit of a panic when a bike swerved out in front of me & forced me into oncoming traffic; the engine almost immediately ran slightly rough and when I accelerated after decelerating, a cloud of blue smoke came out teh back. It blew back through the filler cap something bad.
Upon pulling its head off, it was found that a small failure in the head gasket was the problem & the leakage included where the oil from the valve cover drained back to the sump which was why it blew smoke after decelerating.
As Tom suggested, whip the head off before you make any rash decisions about the motor & I'd suggest you try a post on Citroentech as I think there could be a couple of guys on there that own diesels & also possibly manuals who may be able to offer help if required.
Alan S
Vanny
I agree - take the head off first. I seem to remember you thought your problems were associated with cylinder no 2 but there could be other gasket damage.
If you do have piston problems you have a number of options including replacing with a turbo engine. One option you do not have is turbocharging your engine as there are loads of differences. If you fit a turbo engine you will need to change the radiator and probablt the downpipe. You should change the transmission and driveshafts as well but if you use your existing setup you will have sprint gearing which might be interesting. Its worth working out the revs per gear and turbo cut in points to see if they suit your driving style. From what I remember a TD has a 5th gear pulling about 26 MPH and an ordinary one about 23. As far as I know ABS was an option so it is not necessary to fit this. I have seen somewhere that the 1.9TD was not fitted due to overheating but I cant quite see why. More likely the reason is that the engine was state of the are and they needed something bigger up their sleeve for the heavier Xantia or alternatively the 1.7 block was thought to be stiffer and therefore more reliable for a new concept.
Incidentally these are all unlinered conventional cast iron blocks and can be re-bored. If you are doing your own have a look at some of the engine builders adverts in Exchange and mart - you may be surprised! - They will probably do a 'short' engine for a more reasonable price if you have a good head.
If you conver your car to a conventional TD you should be able to insure it as such. I think the difference for me was about £10 per year but this may be one of the (few) advantages of age. If you go for anything out of the ordinary they may need convincing its safe but you can always point out that the 8 valve GTI was much more powerful and had the same brakes.
jeremy
I agree - take the head off first. I seem to remember you thought your problems were associated with cylinder no 2 but there could be other gasket damage.
If you do have piston problems you have a number of options including replacing with a turbo engine. One option you do not have is turbocharging your engine as there are loads of differences. If you fit a turbo engine you will need to change the radiator and probablt the downpipe. You should change the transmission and driveshafts as well but if you use your existing setup you will have sprint gearing which might be interesting. Its worth working out the revs per gear and turbo cut in points to see if they suit your driving style. From what I remember a TD has a 5th gear pulling about 26 MPH and an ordinary one about 23. As far as I know ABS was an option so it is not necessary to fit this. I have seen somewhere that the 1.9TD was not fitted due to overheating but I cant quite see why. More likely the reason is that the engine was state of the are and they needed something bigger up their sleeve for the heavier Xantia or alternatively the 1.7 block was thought to be stiffer and therefore more reliable for a new concept.
Incidentally these are all unlinered conventional cast iron blocks and can be re-bored. If you are doing your own have a look at some of the engine builders adverts in Exchange and mart - you may be surprised! - They will probably do a 'short' engine for a more reasonable price if you have a good head.
If you conver your car to a conventional TD you should be able to insure it as such. I think the difference for me was about £10 per year but this may be one of the (few) advantages of age. If you go for anything out of the ordinary they may need convincing its safe but you can always point out that the 8 valve GTI was much more powerful and had the same brakes.
jeremy
Thanks folks!
In the imediate future a headjob may be a bit of a farce to pull off, ive lost garage space to a Picasso <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
Being a student time is only an issue when in the pub, then there isnt enough, so cost take full precidence. Already have both Haynes (Diesel and non), and torque wrench (im not convinced about those things, Haynes gives stupid values that the bolts cant take at times!
Im not going down the root of buying a whole car (unless its for salvage) because i want to keep the current one for ever!! With luck it may last, numerous oil leak problems have kept rust away from the engine bay (including the entire subframe) and the body work is in a good condition. Its a learning tool i have to admit, everything has been 'worked on' at some point (complete interior swap will be finished when the sun shines!). I was thinking of getting the uprated engine for numerous reasons. I figured that with the turbo, and the fact that the Xantia is a much heavier car?, then long haul trips will give me much lower fuel costs. The whole power thing will be very useful, there are times when the 1.9d N/A just doesnt cut it. Having driven a TD Golf yesterday, the turbo makes a big difference. Getting the 16v HDi would just be a dream, how about that for a Diesel racing car!! I reckon given the pennies i will do it (have to get a 16v shell!!))
How should the head be cleaned? does it need skimming? What exactly is entailed in the re boring process?
Is there anyway to access if there are piston problems or will it become apparant? Im reluctant to simply take the head off and be resultant in a US car (the picasso will get bitchy!), but there dont seem to be any engines left in the world (i blame taxi drivers!). I assume that if i take the head off for a quick look see then im gonna need new head bolts cos they are stretch bolts?
Have to admit i have been told catagorically that the 1.9N/A can be changed to a TD easily, but i dont belive that!! The option of a TD with the same box isnt a worry, i have a spare box if it munch the current one!!
thnaks
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
In the imediate future a headjob may be a bit of a farce to pull off, ive lost garage space to a Picasso <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>
Being a student time is only an issue when in the pub, then there isnt enough, so cost take full precidence. Already have both Haynes (Diesel and non), and torque wrench (im not convinced about those things, Haynes gives stupid values that the bolts cant take at times!
Im not going down the root of buying a whole car (unless its for salvage) because i want to keep the current one for ever!! With luck it may last, numerous oil leak problems have kept rust away from the engine bay (including the entire subframe) and the body work is in a good condition. Its a learning tool i have to admit, everything has been 'worked on' at some point (complete interior swap will be finished when the sun shines!). I was thinking of getting the uprated engine for numerous reasons. I figured that with the turbo, and the fact that the Xantia is a much heavier car?, then long haul trips will give me much lower fuel costs. The whole power thing will be very useful, there are times when the 1.9d N/A just doesnt cut it. Having driven a TD Golf yesterday, the turbo makes a big difference. Getting the 16v HDi would just be a dream, how about that for a Diesel racing car!! I reckon given the pennies i will do it (have to get a 16v shell!!))
How should the head be cleaned? does it need skimming? What exactly is entailed in the re boring process?
Is there anyway to access if there are piston problems or will it become apparant? Im reluctant to simply take the head off and be resultant in a US car (the picasso will get bitchy!), but there dont seem to be any engines left in the world (i blame taxi drivers!). I assume that if i take the head off for a quick look see then im gonna need new head bolts cos they are stretch bolts?
Have to admit i have been told catagorically that the 1.9N/A can be changed to a TD easily, but i dont belive that!! The option of a TD with the same box isnt a worry, i have a spare box if it munch the current one!!
thnaks
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
-
tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Great, Vanny. With your tools, the cost has just come down to £54. The head bolts are your secret weapon. Replacing these properly will be the key to how long your engine will last. New ones cost less than £12 the set, One of the old ones will need to be sacrificed anyway - I'll explain in due course or read the thread "off with it's head" from about 3 weeks back. There is likely to be nothing wrong with Pistons or rings, don't worry. Head cleans up by scraping the old gasket off with a blunt stanley knife blade held perpendicular to the head face, likewise the block. The head can be given the final clean with a brillo pad or similar and white spirit as a lubricant/solvent.
when you have the head clean (number two will, ironically be spotless because the blown gasket will have allowed the combustion chamber to be steam cleaned:-)then rub the whole surface with 600-800 wet and dry and white spirit, just enough to break the shine on the head.
Cracks should now be apparent if they are there. You will probably be lucky; Replacing the gasket can be a mild pain. If you have a friend, call in a favour! I've done it solo but it is better with help. First, ensure that the dowel is in the block and not the head. If it is in the head when the whole lot comes apart then change it over so it sits on the block. The following advice is to be regarded as heresy by many. It works. The gasket is now retained by one dowel on a surface that faces away from you at 45 degrees... Place a very small amount of thick grease or Hylomar around the very outer edge of the gasket at the gearbox end. Don't contaminate the metal section in the centre of the gasket. This gives you a fighting chance of getting the head over the gasket without the gasket moving. Before you replace the head, drain its oil thoroughly and wash it through with some white spirit to ensure that when you come to place the head over the gasket, the oil don't run all over your new gasket...(bitter experience!)With the help of the friend, place the head over the dowel, cam through the front plate. Curse the unnecessarily silly design here and now, or cut about the front plate with tinsnips so the head can go down level! Once two bolts have engaged, check that the gasket is where you put it. You are now on the home straight.
Part 2 to follow shortly.
when you have the head clean (number two will, ironically be spotless because the blown gasket will have allowed the combustion chamber to be steam cleaned:-)then rub the whole surface with 600-800 wet and dry and white spirit, just enough to break the shine on the head.
Cracks should now be apparent if they are there. You will probably be lucky; Replacing the gasket can be a mild pain. If you have a friend, call in a favour! I've done it solo but it is better with help. First, ensure that the dowel is in the block and not the head. If it is in the head when the whole lot comes apart then change it over so it sits on the block. The following advice is to be regarded as heresy by many. It works. The gasket is now retained by one dowel on a surface that faces away from you at 45 degrees... Place a very small amount of thick grease or Hylomar around the very outer edge of the gasket at the gearbox end. Don't contaminate the metal section in the centre of the gasket. This gives you a fighting chance of getting the head over the gasket without the gasket moving. Before you replace the head, drain its oil thoroughly and wash it through with some white spirit to ensure that when you come to place the head over the gasket, the oil don't run all over your new gasket...(bitter experience!)With the help of the friend, place the head over the dowel, cam through the front plate. Curse the unnecessarily silly design here and now, or cut about the front plate with tinsnips so the head can go down level! Once two bolts have engaged, check that the gasket is where you put it. You are now on the home straight.
Part 2 to follow shortly.
-
tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Part 2. Hints and tips.
If you can have the luxury of a steam cleaned engine, there is no better way of doing the job.
The HP pump pulley does not need to come off the cam.
The first job to do is to raise the suspension to maximum, ignore the usual safety advice if you want to get killed and remove the exhaust downpipe nuts with two 10 mm spanners (The bit you can't see turns!)
This is a swine from the top! do it from underneath. Replace the leak off pipes. They get hard and brittle and make the car thirsty and leaky! Buy in a new breather pipe for £3.50 from Citroen. This will stop your old one from breaking. Honestly it is a pain to fit if the head is on so change it as a matter of course.
Locking the engine. The flywheel bolt is a pain. take off the plastic cover on the clutch lever and the 22 mm bolt then undo the 3 bolts holding on the starter motor. Now you can see the hole! Saves more time than it uses!
Re: mods and new engines... If you want to go 1.7 turbodiesel, your insurers will still crucify you "modified sir" . Suppose you gain 5 MPG say, 1 mile per litre, how many miles will you do before you come into profit with another engine? You'll be long dead, matey. More poke costs more fuel so you can't win.
Or maybe you can... Having fitted a new head gasket in your pristine engine bay, you have evidence that yours is a good 'un. Flog it for top dollar and find a xantia or a zx with a busted head gasket...
If you can have the luxury of a steam cleaned engine, there is no better way of doing the job.
The HP pump pulley does not need to come off the cam.
The first job to do is to raise the suspension to maximum, ignore the usual safety advice if you want to get killed and remove the exhaust downpipe nuts with two 10 mm spanners (The bit you can't see turns!)
This is a swine from the top! do it from underneath. Replace the leak off pipes. They get hard and brittle and make the car thirsty and leaky! Buy in a new breather pipe for £3.50 from Citroen. This will stop your old one from breaking. Honestly it is a pain to fit if the head is on so change it as a matter of course.
Locking the engine. The flywheel bolt is a pain. take off the plastic cover on the clutch lever and the 22 mm bolt then undo the 3 bolts holding on the starter motor. Now you can see the hole! Saves more time than it uses!
Re: mods and new engines... If you want to go 1.7 turbodiesel, your insurers will still crucify you "modified sir" . Suppose you gain 5 MPG say, 1 mile per litre, how many miles will you do before you come into profit with another engine? You'll be long dead, matey. More poke costs more fuel so you can't win.
Or maybe you can... Having fitted a new head gasket in your pristine engine bay, you have evidence that yours is a good 'un. Flog it for top dollar and find a xantia or a zx with a busted head gasket...
Vanny - I think every way you look at it the new/re-gasketed head is the cheapest option - andf you've got the replacemnts to fall back on if all else fails. I've recently got close to the end of stripping bits off a defunct 1.9d at a far too leisurely pace. I've drawn some conclusions from this - one being that removing the head was one of the easiest things to do - and can be done with many of the ancilliaries in place (good idea in an oily engine bay). Don't be tempted to remove the air inlet manifold from the back first.
(1) Diesel fuelling kit. Pump - if good, and Bosch, then why consider wasting it. They're good bits of kit, and a bit of a pain to remove or recalibrate. Ditto for injectors, bar the removal (easy with a deep 24mm socket). They don't even need to come off for "check it out" head removal - ditto glowplugs.
(2) Replacing an engine (esp. with a turbo) means hoist, extra storage space, and lots of extra ancilliaries. It also means removing driveshafts, potentially disturbing the hydraulics(return lines), not to mention the extra time and cash.
(3)You won't know what the problem was unless you get the head off. Sounds trivial , but you could be kicking yourself if you fit a new engine and it proves a dud, when the old one was repairable.
(4) With the head off you've got scope for easier access to that rev counter connection......
The head I removed proved to be cracked between middle cylinders, but had been throughly abused and run without a thermostat - no surprises. I was surprised at the lack of any other damage, apart from the inevitable few combustion chamber cracks and clogged waterways. If you run it for too long and it IS the head gasket, you'll end up with the cracks or a rather heavy alloy banana at the end of the day......
If you must get a TD engine, there's one I saw on ebay today starting at about £30, though in the scottish borders.
(1) Diesel fuelling kit. Pump - if good, and Bosch, then why consider wasting it. They're good bits of kit, and a bit of a pain to remove or recalibrate. Ditto for injectors, bar the removal (easy with a deep 24mm socket). They don't even need to come off for "check it out" head removal - ditto glowplugs.
(2) Replacing an engine (esp. with a turbo) means hoist, extra storage space, and lots of extra ancilliaries. It also means removing driveshafts, potentially disturbing the hydraulics(return lines), not to mention the extra time and cash.
(3)You won't know what the problem was unless you get the head off. Sounds trivial , but you could be kicking yourself if you fit a new engine and it proves a dud, when the old one was repairable.
(4) With the head off you've got scope for easier access to that rev counter connection......
The head I removed proved to be cracked between middle cylinders, but had been throughly abused and run without a thermostat - no surprises. I was surprised at the lack of any other damage, apart from the inevitable few combustion chamber cracks and clogged waterways. If you run it for too long and it IS the head gasket, you'll end up with the cracks or a rather heavy alloy banana at the end of the day......
If you must get a TD engine, there's one I saw on ebay today starting at about £30, though in the scottish borders.
Im thouroughly convinced that untill such time as ALL idiot drivers are taken off the road, and my insurance premiums dissapear then i aint gonna get to build a diesel race car (but ill still keep my out for the engine <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>, so on with the head gasket!!
I have plenty of favours to call in, and a Peugoet garage round the corner (takes a bit of convincing, but i always get wht i want off them).
Im gonna go through this the way i think it happens, please excuse my naiveness;
Engine is build up it four large shells; rocker cover, 'upper' head, 'lower bit' and sump. The Gasket is between the head and the 'lower bit'.
So to do the gasket job i need to take the rocker cover off, take the rocker out, take the head off, change the gasket. Very simple view, but i hevent got the diesel haynes to hand, only the petrol. Now this will mean that i need to take the pump off (easy), the breather system (easy), the exhaust (easy when the pump and air box are off!! Ive been there more than once!).
Now to toms mail;
I dont have the hard leak off pipes (these are the ones that look like the 'breather' pipes out of the reservoir), they died a long time ago and where replaced (ill swear the replacement is the tube between the washer bottles, but it works!!).
Which is the breather pipe, and where does it go? Is this the one from rocker to oil filler? Think its knackered anyway!!
Now locking the engine? Is this putting the pin through the fly wheel to stop it turning, or are you saying the fly wheel bolts have to be removed and hence the flywheel/gearbox has to come off? Not that im objectional to the gearbox off job, i have a lot of experience in that department, learned some new tricks two weeks ago, reckon i can have it off and on within 5hours. If i only have to lock the flywheel i have the 'Special Vanny tool number 15' makes the job a breeze, but for ease of access ill be taking the starter off anyhows.
And to DLMs post;
It is the Bosch pump, and i assume it works!
If im taking the injectors out, is it worth checking them? (quite a lot to get them checked, especially a £20 an injector for new ones) Would i get any benefit from new injectors, assuming i can find the pennies to buy them?
Willt he plugs/injectors have to come off when i clean the head?
The only thing i worry about when thinking about the engine change is the driveshafts, engine hoist (well, VERY good rigging, static rope and last time i had my little sister hauling the eninge up while i belayed it) short term space not too big a problem. But still a definate No No for now!
Your definately right about that rev counter, i now have the conector to wire it up (i think) and i have a GTi main wiring loom spread out on the floor behind me to add all the other 'fun' bits. I guess ill do all those other jobs that need doing while she's up in the air!
And finally;
Is there any good way to utilise a pressure washer AND compressor when cleaning stuff off? Am i better using just the compressor an addative to clean the engine? Can i use GUNK as the solvent to clean it all down? What should i recoat the engine with? Moparts have waxoil really cheap, should i be going with that? I plan on getting the engine steam cleaned on the way home, they do it cheap (if you speak to the right people) but assuming they are used to Fords and Vauxhalls without any magic green blood, are they likely to kill anything while blasting?
And Finally; No, i really mean it this time!!;
Thnaks for your replies, strangely i didnt get all wound up and depressed about this problem (i think secretly ive always wanted to have the head off!!). Its brilliant to have people teach me about something i care for, and such brilliant teachers i have. Just remind me im saying this if and when i ever meet you all, there is deffinately something in it for you!!
I really do have to check that lottery ticket froma couple of weeks ago, this could all be for nothing!!
Quote of the day 'you really know you've spent too long with your car when, your therapist is having to relate everything to a BX' <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
I have plenty of favours to call in, and a Peugoet garage round the corner (takes a bit of convincing, but i always get wht i want off them).
Im gonna go through this the way i think it happens, please excuse my naiveness;
Engine is build up it four large shells; rocker cover, 'upper' head, 'lower bit' and sump. The Gasket is between the head and the 'lower bit'.
So to do the gasket job i need to take the rocker cover off, take the rocker out, take the head off, change the gasket. Very simple view, but i hevent got the diesel haynes to hand, only the petrol. Now this will mean that i need to take the pump off (easy), the breather system (easy), the exhaust (easy when the pump and air box are off!! Ive been there more than once!).
Now to toms mail;
I dont have the hard leak off pipes (these are the ones that look like the 'breather' pipes out of the reservoir), they died a long time ago and where replaced (ill swear the replacement is the tube between the washer bottles, but it works!!).
Which is the breather pipe, and where does it go? Is this the one from rocker to oil filler? Think its knackered anyway!!
Now locking the engine? Is this putting the pin through the fly wheel to stop it turning, or are you saying the fly wheel bolts have to be removed and hence the flywheel/gearbox has to come off? Not that im objectional to the gearbox off job, i have a lot of experience in that department, learned some new tricks two weeks ago, reckon i can have it off and on within 5hours. If i only have to lock the flywheel i have the 'Special Vanny tool number 15' makes the job a breeze, but for ease of access ill be taking the starter off anyhows.
And to DLMs post;
It is the Bosch pump, and i assume it works!
If im taking the injectors out, is it worth checking them? (quite a lot to get them checked, especially a £20 an injector for new ones) Would i get any benefit from new injectors, assuming i can find the pennies to buy them?
Willt he plugs/injectors have to come off when i clean the head?
The only thing i worry about when thinking about the engine change is the driveshafts, engine hoist (well, VERY good rigging, static rope and last time i had my little sister hauling the eninge up while i belayed it) short term space not too big a problem. But still a definate No No for now!
Your definately right about that rev counter, i now have the conector to wire it up (i think) and i have a GTi main wiring loom spread out on the floor behind me to add all the other 'fun' bits. I guess ill do all those other jobs that need doing while she's up in the air!
And finally;
Is there any good way to utilise a pressure washer AND compressor when cleaning stuff off? Am i better using just the compressor an addative to clean the engine? Can i use GUNK as the solvent to clean it all down? What should i recoat the engine with? Moparts have waxoil really cheap, should i be going with that? I plan on getting the engine steam cleaned on the way home, they do it cheap (if you speak to the right people) but assuming they are used to Fords and Vauxhalls without any magic green blood, are they likely to kill anything while blasting?
And Finally; No, i really mean it this time!!;
Thnaks for your replies, strangely i didnt get all wound up and depressed about this problem (i think secretly ive always wanted to have the head off!!). Its brilliant to have people teach me about something i care for, and such brilliant teachers i have. Just remind me im saying this if and when i ever meet you all, there is deffinately something in it for you!!
I really do have to check that lottery ticket froma couple of weeks ago, this could all be for nothing!!
Quote of the day 'you really know you've spent too long with your car when, your therapist is having to relate everything to a BX' <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
Vanny
Several points - probably totally disjointed as its late.
When washing the engine be careful! - dint blast the alternator and starter - they are working at the moment and are expensive if they fail because they are soaked! I've had a starter seize because the armature cores rusted and hit the field coils after cleaning and no immediate use.
Also on most cars there is a continuous bell housing to exclude water from the clutch - not so on my TD - I can actually see the clutch plate through the top of the bellhousing - so be careful about soaking the clutch.
I don't think you need to remove the camshaft to remove the head. You lock the engine with bolts to assist with re-assembly and the fitting of the cambelt. You can probably get away without removing the crankshaft pulley (very tight)if you tie the belt up when you remove it. If you are going to remove this bolt I suggest you do it at the start of the job while the car is still mobile and you can lock the crank by putting it into 5th gear and putting the handbrake on and blocking the wheels.
While you have the head off you should check the pistons and bores carefully. What you are looking for is fore and aft play when the postons are pushed, excessive oil, differences, scored bores, piston damage. You will always find a small ridge around the tops of the bores. what matters is the ovality of the bores which prevent the rings acting properly. Most of the wear occurs on the thrust side (front of car side)and least on the sides. Most bore wear is near the top. When an engine wears the gasses leak past the piston rings causing them to get very hot, become fragile and break. The broken bits then chatter in their grooves and wear them and in extreme cases bits can work their way up onto the crown of the piston and embed themselves there.
I have found Haynes BX manuals in charity shops and was able to buy older but better editions of both the car and diesel engine manuals in excellent condition for a combined price of £3 or thereabouts (bought both new when I got the car for £30!) The grey diesel manual is better than the later blue one and the thick brown car manual (83-94) is better than the thinner blue one which is summarised in places and simplified. Remember that ZX diesel and others are essentially the same engine if you are buying a second hand book.
Skimming heads isn't usually very expensive but you have to be careful of valves etc with diesels as the clearances are very small. I have often cleaned a head surface with a carpenters oilstone simply as it won't dig in and damage the gasket surface and is quite effective in removing muck. same goes for the block but be very careful about residue in bores and down piston sides and in the oilways.
Do you really need to remove the injection pump - can't you remove the injection pipes?
Jeremy
Several points - probably totally disjointed as its late.
When washing the engine be careful! - dint blast the alternator and starter - they are working at the moment and are expensive if they fail because they are soaked! I've had a starter seize because the armature cores rusted and hit the field coils after cleaning and no immediate use.
Also on most cars there is a continuous bell housing to exclude water from the clutch - not so on my TD - I can actually see the clutch plate through the top of the bellhousing - so be careful about soaking the clutch.
I don't think you need to remove the camshaft to remove the head. You lock the engine with bolts to assist with re-assembly and the fitting of the cambelt. You can probably get away without removing the crankshaft pulley (very tight)if you tie the belt up when you remove it. If you are going to remove this bolt I suggest you do it at the start of the job while the car is still mobile and you can lock the crank by putting it into 5th gear and putting the handbrake on and blocking the wheels.
While you have the head off you should check the pistons and bores carefully. What you are looking for is fore and aft play when the postons are pushed, excessive oil, differences, scored bores, piston damage. You will always find a small ridge around the tops of the bores. what matters is the ovality of the bores which prevent the rings acting properly. Most of the wear occurs on the thrust side (front of car side)and least on the sides. Most bore wear is near the top. When an engine wears the gasses leak past the piston rings causing them to get very hot, become fragile and break. The broken bits then chatter in their grooves and wear them and in extreme cases bits can work their way up onto the crown of the piston and embed themselves there.
I have found Haynes BX manuals in charity shops and was able to buy older but better editions of both the car and diesel engine manuals in excellent condition for a combined price of £3 or thereabouts (bought both new when I got the car for £30!) The grey diesel manual is better than the later blue one and the thick brown car manual (83-94) is better than the thinner blue one which is summarised in places and simplified. Remember that ZX diesel and others are essentially the same engine if you are buying a second hand book.
Skimming heads isn't usually very expensive but you have to be careful of valves etc with diesels as the clearances are very small. I have often cleaned a head surface with a carpenters oilstone simply as it won't dig in and damage the gasket surface and is quite effective in removing muck. same goes for the block but be very careful about residue in bores and down piston sides and in the oilways.
Do you really need to remove the injection pump - can't you remove the injection pipes?
Jeremy
-
tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
Vanny, forgive me for saying this but some of your questions suggest that you have not yet studied the manual. I think that this is the next thing that you must do if you are serious about going ahead. It will make much of this clearer in your mind and give you something to refer to when you read our postings. Quick resume: The engine, gearbox clutch etcetera stay in place. Three screws hold on the CAM cover (we all call it a rocker cover, it is a misnomer- your engine doesn't have rockers.)I am not certain which motor yours has but it sounds earlier than mine. The pipe I refer to runs from rocker cover to oil filler neck but yours may have the earlier arrangement. The crank pulley doesn't need to come off but the cam sprocket does.The cam stays in place. If you really can lock the flywheel without getting the starter off then do so, save yourself some work. The diesel pump stays where it is, the metal pipes come off instead, the Hydraulic pump just swings out of the way and does not need to come off. There is a lot less work here than you are imagining: Even Citroen wanted it to be fixable (well, at least during the warranty period!!!) Please read the book, it will make it far easier for us to help you as you will be able to refer to pages and illustrations that many of us have which in turn will enable us to give you good advice.
And you'll feel SO good when you have got it fixed and all the cuts and bruises have healed!
Good Luck!
Edited by - tomsheppard on 05 Feb 2003 08:48:08
And you'll feel SO good when you have got it fixed and all the cuts and bruises have healed!
Good Luck!
Edited by - tomsheppard on 05 Feb 2003 08:48:08
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RichardW
- Forum Treasurer
- Posts: 10868
- Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 17:12
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars: MK2 '17 C4GP 1.6 BlueHDi 120
'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl - x 994
Vanny,
You really need a Haynes to tackle the head job - if nothing else to get the right torque for the head bolts. However, in short:
Drain cooling system, jack up car and unbolt exhaust flange, remove HP pump drive belt, take the heater feed hose off the back flywheel end of the engine, remove the rocker cover with any breather pipes connected, place jack (with block of wood) under sump and take engine's weight, remove RH engine mount, remove top cambelt covers, rotate engine using RH wheel until you can fit a M8 bolt in the camshaft sprocket timing hole, and 2 in the holes in the inspection pump, and the 8mm bar in the flywheel timing hole (behind the starter - possible with a long bent rod, but maybe easier with the starter off). Undo the 2 13mm bolts that hold the belt tensioner, then turn the tension towards the back of the car using a 3/8" drive extension in the square hole in the front, nip up one of the holding bolts to hold it back, then slip the timing belt off the camshaft. Tighten the lower tensioner fixing bolt and remove the upper one. Remove the highest bolt from the engine end of the RH engine mount support, hold the camshaft on the special flat in the middle and unscrew the camshaft pulley bolt (timing end!). Refit the engine mount, and take the jack out. Remove the injector feed pipes. Remove the RH engine lifting bracket, remove the thermostat housing. check and disconnect any other hoses etc joined on the head. Undo the head bolts - start with the middle one at the back, and go 1/4 turn at a time in a spiral outwards (middle back, middle front, right of middle front, right of middle back, left of middle back etc). remove the head bolts (if you can!), gently rock the head backwards and forwards till it separates from the block, then lift it out - note you need to move it to the right to clear the camshaft from the engine front plate. Look for the dowel Tom mentioned. Clean up and check the head and block for flatness and cracks - small cracks coming back from the holes in the swirl chambers are OK - cracks between valves etc are not!
Refitting is the reverse of removal!! Note: You might find it best to put a piece of cardboard on the block whilst refitting the head, and then when it's in place, lift it up and get your assitant to slide the new head gasket in place. Before refitting, use an old bolt with a SMALL amount of oil on it and make sure it will run down the bottom of the thread in each of the head bolt holes. Apply a smear of grease to each new headbolt as it goes in, and to the washer it tightens down onto. Don't forget to turn the engine over at LEAST twice by hand when you've refitted the timing belt, to make sure it does turn over, and that afterwards the timing pins go back in - don't forget to take them out when you finally rebuild!! To restart the car - make sure the battery and starter are good! Pump the primer till it goes hard, turn the igniton on and pump again, flick the starter over and pump again - do this several times - it helps to get the diesel back up the injector pipes - give it heaters and try and start it. If it won't go, stop cranking and pump the primer again - you'll get it going eventually! N/A diesel head gasket should be about 8 hours for a first timer if you have the tools to hand!
Enjoy!
Richard
You really need a Haynes to tackle the head job - if nothing else to get the right torque for the head bolts. However, in short:
Drain cooling system, jack up car and unbolt exhaust flange, remove HP pump drive belt, take the heater feed hose off the back flywheel end of the engine, remove the rocker cover with any breather pipes connected, place jack (with block of wood) under sump and take engine's weight, remove RH engine mount, remove top cambelt covers, rotate engine using RH wheel until you can fit a M8 bolt in the camshaft sprocket timing hole, and 2 in the holes in the inspection pump, and the 8mm bar in the flywheel timing hole (behind the starter - possible with a long bent rod, but maybe easier with the starter off). Undo the 2 13mm bolts that hold the belt tensioner, then turn the tension towards the back of the car using a 3/8" drive extension in the square hole in the front, nip up one of the holding bolts to hold it back, then slip the timing belt off the camshaft. Tighten the lower tensioner fixing bolt and remove the upper one. Remove the highest bolt from the engine end of the RH engine mount support, hold the camshaft on the special flat in the middle and unscrew the camshaft pulley bolt (timing end!). Refit the engine mount, and take the jack out. Remove the injector feed pipes. Remove the RH engine lifting bracket, remove the thermostat housing. check and disconnect any other hoses etc joined on the head. Undo the head bolts - start with the middle one at the back, and go 1/4 turn at a time in a spiral outwards (middle back, middle front, right of middle front, right of middle back, left of middle back etc). remove the head bolts (if you can!), gently rock the head backwards and forwards till it separates from the block, then lift it out - note you need to move it to the right to clear the camshaft from the engine front plate. Look for the dowel Tom mentioned. Clean up and check the head and block for flatness and cracks - small cracks coming back from the holes in the swirl chambers are OK - cracks between valves etc are not!
Refitting is the reverse of removal!! Note: You might find it best to put a piece of cardboard on the block whilst refitting the head, and then when it's in place, lift it up and get your assitant to slide the new head gasket in place. Before refitting, use an old bolt with a SMALL amount of oil on it and make sure it will run down the bottom of the thread in each of the head bolt holes. Apply a smear of grease to each new headbolt as it goes in, and to the washer it tightens down onto. Don't forget to turn the engine over at LEAST twice by hand when you've refitted the timing belt, to make sure it does turn over, and that afterwards the timing pins go back in - don't forget to take them out when you finally rebuild!! To restart the car - make sure the battery and starter are good! Pump the primer till it goes hard, turn the igniton on and pump again, flick the starter over and pump again - do this several times - it helps to get the diesel back up the injector pipes - give it heaters and try and start it. If it won't go, stop cranking and pump the primer again - you'll get it going eventually! N/A diesel head gasket should be about 8 hours for a first timer if you have the tools to hand!
Enjoy!
Richard
Vanny
Somewhere you have mentioned fiyying a tachometer and I seem to recall you saying you would look at a GTI loom.
In fact life is not quite so complicated. I think your tachometer will have 4 terminals, 2 are connected to the sensor, the 3rd is an earth and the 4th is a power supply for the small amplifier in it - which converts the pulses from the sensor to a steady current for the meter. It should therefore be fed from an ignition controlled curcuit.
Who knows - there may even be a plug on your car behind the dash. The connector to the sensor is a brown or purple (cant remember) socket found somewhere under the battery.
jeremy
Somewhere you have mentioned fiyying a tachometer and I seem to recall you saying you would look at a GTI loom.
In fact life is not quite so complicated. I think your tachometer will have 4 terminals, 2 are connected to the sensor, the 3rd is an earth and the 4th is a power supply for the small amplifier in it - which converts the pulses from the sensor to a steady current for the meter. It should therefore be fed from an ignition controlled curcuit.
Who knows - there may even be a plug on your car behind the dash. The connector to the sensor is a brown or purple (cant remember) socket found somewhere under the battery.
jeremy
-
tomsheppard
- Posts: 1801
- Joined: 19 Dec 2002, 14:46
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
As Richard has outlined the procedure so well, you'll have little trouble. He works quicker than I do though! I'll content myself with adding just a few remarks about head bolts. Some will come out corroded. There will be rust in theor holes. Take your best old bolt and, using a hacksaw cut through the threads up the length of the bolt several times to make a primitive tap. Screw this into each hole in turn and withdraw it. The sawcuts will be full of gunge that you clean out with a toothbrush and whatever solvent you are using - WD or Plus Gas. Keep doing this until the bolt goes into all holes to the same depth and comes out of each hole clean. Don't short cut here otherwise the bolts will be unevenly tightened, irrespective of what the torque wrench tells you as it takes more torque to overcome the muck and rust in a dirty thread than in a clean lightly oiled one. The dirty ones will therefore be looser. Successful head gasket jobs rely on quite a bit of preparation once the engine has been split.
When you put in those lovely new bolts that are going to stay put for the next 300 000 miles, wipe them with a smear of copper grease for preference (you can then see where it is!). You really only need a trace of it or you'll be likely to break something.
When you put in those lovely new bolts that are going to stay put for the next 300 000 miles, wipe them with a smear of copper grease for preference (you can then see where it is!). You really only need a trace of it or you'll be likely to break something.