Xantia 2.1 Injection pumps

[KP]

Has anyone swapped a Lucas Epic pump on a Xantia 2.1TD at all?

Or does anyone know of any difficulties fitting one?
My dad thinks his may be on its last legs as the engien is still stalling sometimes when your yusing engine braking up to junctions and push the clutch in despite lots of work being done on the engine by a PSA specialist.
They reckon it was fuel contamination and cleaned the pump and lines out but still not much better.

Does the pump really have to be coded to the ecu??

[CitroJim]

Hi KP,

The actual job of fitting a new EPIC will not present any huge difficulty mechanically. You won't even need to disturb the cambelt, just remove the cambelt cover on the pump pulley, bring the engine to time and insert acouple of timing bolts (8mm) in the pulley and slacken off the centre nut. You will need a puller to draw the sprocket off the pump but one can be easily made from a short bar with two holes drilled in it to register with the 7mm tapped holes in the sprocket. I can supply the required dimensions to make a suitable puller.

It is, mechanically, exactly the same job as swapping a Bosch pump on a 1.9TD.

The pump is held in its cradle with three nuts on the drive face and one at the rear of the pump. The nut right underneath might present a challange but can be reached with a specially "C" shaped spanner. Then it's just a case of removing the injector pipes, fuel supply/return pipes and electrics and it's in your hand.

I'm not 100% sure about the need to key the pump to the ECU but I'm pretty sure it will be doable with a pukka Citroen Diagnostics system (e.g. a Lexia). If you can, when you get a replacement pump (second-hand?) try to get the ECU and keypad (with code) that goes with it. New EPIC pumps are apparantly rather expensive..

Has the PSA specialist run full diagnostics on the old pump/ECU?

[Xaccers]

Could we interest you in sourcing and fitting a mechanical 2.1 pump just to see if it would work?

[KP]

ha ha nice try :p

I dont think it was hooked upto any diagnostics units.

Does anyone know of a reasonable one near Warrington at all thats not a Cit dealer and wouldn't charge a fortune for a 5 minute job?

Problem is we have a pump but no ECU with it or pad My dads Xantia is padless though due to being a Mark2 .....

[CitroJim]

Could we interest you in sourcing and fitting a mechanical 2.1 pump just to see if it would work?

That's a good thought Xac You could source one from an early XM or a Peugeot or Citroen White Van fitted with the 2.1TD. The engine cradle has the tappings for a Bosch pump and I'm fairly certain the drive sprocket is the same. You would also need the Bosch injectors and pipes.

Your issues will be to arrange a new throttle cable as the EPIC one ends up short under the airbox where it drives the throttle pot but a 1.9TD one should do. You may have to make up some new fuel supply/return pipes.

The other issue is to provide a switched ignition supply for the stop solenoid (available in the ECU box) and to ensure that the ECU still does its peripheral funtctions. In the 2.1TD it operates the tacho, speedo, glowplug controller and I think, also the temperature gauge. I do know it does a lot more than say, the ECU in the 1.9TD. You'd also have to remove the Engine Management Light as it would be on all the time without an EPIC pump fitted.

Maybe it will be of little consequence but you'd also loose the keypad immobiliser if you went down the mechanical route.

If you wanted to be really brave, it might be possible to use a 1.9TD mechanical pump but fuelling would most likely need adjustment. In any case you will need to carefully set the timing with a mechanical pump but a reasonable job can be done by ear.

I stress this is all very much virgin territory. The theory is all there but the practice is not.

One thing I should have said in my earlier post: be careful of the woodruff key when removing the old pump. It can fly out and loose itself in the dark depths of the cambelt tensioners. Stuff a load of rags around to catch it. On reassembley, hold it in place with a dab of Vaseline.

[CitroJim]

Shame you're not down this way for the diagnostics...

Problem is we have a pump but no ECU with it or pad My dads Xantia is padless though due to being a Mark2 .....

That puts a slightly different complexion on things. Forget all the mechanical stuff then if you have one. My gut feeling with a MK2 Transponder Immobiliser is that you should be able to swap the pump with no issues as the Transponder is locked to the ECU and not, as far as I know, the pump itself.

Unfortunately I cannot confirm in practice as my 2.1TD is a MK1 with a keypad. I will though, hook up my diagnostics to it this evening and see if the Lexia gives any options for pump replacement and recoding although that will apply only to the keypad type.

[CitroJim]

KP,

Looking at the diagrams and doing a bit of investigative diagnostics (as far as I could, not having the exact model you have) I'm fairly certain the ECU is keyed to the immobiliser and not to the pump. There is no transponder in the EPIC pump and the immobiliser locks the ECU.

This is the opposite to the 1.9TD pump where the immobiliser connects to the pump direct and does not touch the ECU at all.

You should therefore be safe (as far as I can tell) to swap out the pump without fear of locking anything out.

[KP]

Well the pump seems to be terminal now and Paris Citroen in manchester dont seem to fancy swapping it over, i can understand as it may not fix the issue.
Its just had a new cambelt kit and water pump fitted so my dad is a bit down hearted about it now and thinking of scrapping it as its running issue is much worse now.
The car will not idle unless you keep the revs up a bit and if your engine breaking down to a junction or anything and then push the clutch down either with or withour brakes applied the engine stalls.

To me its like the ECU is actually telling the pump not to inject but i guess it could be that the pump isnt able to inject enough.
I just always thought when these pumps failed it wouldn't even fire up due to being ceased up??

How much would it cost from your average garage to swap pumps do you think Jim?

Thanks for all the input on this by the way everyone

PS its definately a mk2 facelift hatchback and its only just turned 100k so i reckon as a spares or repair its going to be worht on the right side of £450 looking from ebay at the minute but i'd rather get my dad to get it fixed by a pump swap than going out and buying some iffy xantia HDi or worse a poor condition high miler C5 HDi for about 2k

[CitroJim]

How much would it cost from your average garage to swap pumps do you think Jim?

The job, for someone who knows what is involved is about half a days work. If they're new to it, reckon a bit longer. 4 hours work should see the job done.

I really hope a replacement pump sorts it. The point with an EPIC is that it has sensors within it for fuel temperature and pump cam position and so on. It also has two hydraulic servos, one to control timing and the other to control the throttle. These servos hate air with avengence as they both use the diesel fuel as thier hydrauclic fluid. Are you 100% sure, and absolutely dead certain the problem is not caused by air ingress somewhere?

I wish you were closer, I'd have enjoyed having a look at the problem and letting the Lexia have a look at it I'm a little dubious that it is the pump (or for that matter, the ECU). Also check, before finally going for the pump, that the throttle pot is OK. It's under the airbox and if it has poor connections or it is a bit "iffy" internally, it could well cause the problem. My favourite though, is an air leak somewhere on the fuel supply side.