Xantia 1.9TD - Not Starting Nightmare

[coopertron]

Hi All,

I've never resolved this issue - I have made the following posts and received some excellent advice from you helpful guys:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... highlight=

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... highlight=

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... highlight=

I am really at my wits end with this now, and it is looking like it is time for the big bucks now, as most of the simple stuff has been done.

Basically the problem keeps coming back to not starting. It cranks over and cranks over, and over and over and over........

If you crank it long enough, it will fire up. Once it is running, it drives spot on, goes well, all is fine. It's just getting the damn thing started. I have found that the last few days or so, it will not start from cold with one cycle of the glow plugs, but if you give it a couple of cycles and pump the primer (which now does seem to get hard) it will usually start after that.

I am trying to suss out a pattern so I can narrow down the things that are left..

Here is the story so far of replacements et all:

• 4 x Brand new Beru glow plugs from GSF
  Glow plug relay seems to be staying on and providing power to plugs
  Plugs are definitely getting power
  Fuel lines all checked for air leaks (garage checked this)
  Fuel line replaced between fuel filter housing to pump (i put clear line in that was letting air in)
  New diesel filter and wurth diesel additive added to filter housing.
  Oil and filter change
  No return valve fitted after priming bulb and before fuel filter housing
  Brand new replacement primer bulb
  Swapped battery for known working battery
  Compression test fine - 300psi on all cylinders
  Injectors all tested - all fine
  
  I am really struggling with this, and it is presumably getting to big dollars time - replacing the pump etc.
  
  Is there something really obvious I have missed here?
  
  Thanks for your advice people!

[jeremy]

300 psi isn't much compression for a diesel - how was it measured?

You'll have the Bosch pump - replace the leakoff pipes and any end cap. Small bore fuel tube will probably fit - and the end caps are readily available in accessory shops. A pair of long nosed pliers will help. If you have a roto diesel pump the leakoff pipes will make no difference.

Is the stop solenoid operating properly? Could it be sticky? There is some (recent??) info on here on these. New ones are about £20?

You can check the glowplug relay by disconnecting the glowplug feed and connecting them straight to the battery with a jump lead or something. Don't leave them on while you have a cup of tea - but they should be OK if you try and start after the period it takes for the light to go out and disconnect when the engine starts.

Is the starter turning fast enough? Try checking the engine earth by using a jump lead between the engine and the battery negative terminal. Check the wiring for the + terminal as well. Are there any plugs in this circuit (BX has one under the battery tray) so follow the lead.

Is the ignition switch operating the glowplugs? The switches can fail (and have on my BX and ZX) Is it operating the engine shutoff properly as well?

I'd try and test the ignition switch first - disconnect the starter solenoid if its easy so you can play without the engine turning and with a test light or something make sure that the appropriate terminals go live when its operated. On the ZX it wouldn't operate the starter properly - I put a meter on it and it operated perfectly every time - and worked properly for a day or so afterwards - so these aren't easy to find. Eventually it would turn itself off when a bunch of keys on a ring moved - and I knew I'd found it! There was an after market immobiliser fitted and I was'n't sure which was to blame)

[vince]

I sympathise with you pal, i am having the exact problem with my 95 Passat TD....its so annoying. The ignition stater switch is a good place to look as often it provides a feed for the fuel cut off solenoid to deactivate and let fuel through to the pump. ive tried mine but to no avail

Id be interested in finding out what you find as the cause because that way i can fix my passat

Ive not really had much of a bash at mine yet but will be doing so over the next few weeks. as soon as i find a Xantia to drive around in in the meantime.

Im suspecting an electrical feed problem to the solenoid on mine as the pump is belt driven so is turning over.

[deian]

says in the haynes bol that the compression should be 363 to 435 with the engine warm with a minimum of 261psi. so 300psi sounds ok (not good, but ok)

a goood spray of wd40 over the solenoid connection and earths wouldnt do any harm.

good way of checking the glow plugs work when you put the ingniton on from cold is to check for a voltage drop in the battery, and then the voltage should go back up when the timer has finished energising them.

a strong battery does not mean a strong starter, so an earth issue could starve it of current, how healthy and quick does it turn? maybe do a load test on the battery (even the known working one, unless it was brand new) see how they cope.

again, the stop solenoid could be sticky, if it runs ok after starting i doubt it would be the pump

have you checked for fuel pressure? and the that the pick up gauze in the tank isn't cakes with sludge.

[MikeT]

How was that compression measured exactly? It does seem low. Have you checked the valve clearances?

[Peter.N.]

You don't mention the stop solonoid in your list of things tried, also suggested by Jeremy. You also don't say what year it is. If its pre '96, its quite easy to change and could quite likely be the cause of your problem. If it has a key pad, thats a different matter, as you have to take a hammer and chisel to it. If its a non key pad type, change the stop solonoid and I would be surprised if it doesn't cure it.

[coopertron]

The car is a 1996 P reg. It has a keypad immobiliser, but this has been bypassed.

I forgot to mention, the leakoff pipes have been replaced twice - I did it once, and the last garage who had it also replaced the leakoff pipes.

Funnily enough, I went to see a Citroen specialist in the next village to where i live, and he said his money was on the stop solenoid on the side of the pump, although he said it was armoured, and you would have to take the pump off to drill out the sheer bolts to get at it.

He said this because I mentioned when I got it back from the garage one time when they were looking into this problem, when I turned off the ignition, the engine carried on. This didnt happen all the time, just a few times, and fixed itself after a little while.



Basically I have spent enough on this now, in every other respect, it is a great car - bodywork is excellent, everything else works, its just this issue.


What does everyone think its worth, and would anyone be interested in buying it on here?

It is a 96 P reg, 1.9TD SX in Arctic White. 4 x electric windows, ABS, remote central locking, airbag, etc - all works.

138k, service history (has been loved),towbar with twin electrics, factory stereo with AUX in. Now has 12 months MOT (no problems there) and 1 months tax.

Would anyone be interested? - its way to good to scrap.....

[myglaren]

Put it in the For Sale and Wanted forum - you will likely get more chance of a buyer there.

Shame to sell it just for that but it is a bit of an awkward job. Last straw territory.

[Peter.N.]

That definitly sounds like your problem then. Seems a shame to sell it if its a good car, whatever you replace it with will quite likely need at least as much spent on it as it will cost to cure your problem.

The alternative would be to fit a pump from an earlier model without the keypad.

[steviewonder7]

I agree with Peter...its such a shame to sell the motor when you've put in so much effort.Just alittle more time and you'll have your motor back.
I'm sure one or two people on hear have got around this pump problem by drilling out those armoured bolts etc.
I've not done the job myself but if this was the cure to the problem I'd give it a go.Better the devil you do know than the devil you dont

[CitroJim]

I too agree.

It is a heck of a job to drill off the armour and to do it the pump has to be removed from the car.

I've done it once as described here but believe me, it is not easy and damage is a constant risk.

If you are gioing that far, it is far easier to source a mechanical pump from an earlier vehicle (any 1.9TD engined vehicle will do) and substitute it. The job is in fact very simple and I have done it with complete success. All fuel lines are the same and the throttle and fast-idle cables are a direct swap.

It is necessary to leave the old ECU in place even though it is not apparantly doing anything with a mechanical pump. It is in fact still needed to operate the tacho and to control the glowplug timer. The engine management light will be on constantly but a simple bulb removal fixes that.

The final job is to pick up a switched 12V supply to operate the stop solenoid. Such a supply is handily available from the double relay socket sitting next to the ECU.

You may need to carefully tweak the timing a touch.

In all, a very doable job to save an otherwise good car. The job can be easily done in a day and it is not even necessary to take the cambelt off.

If you want more specific details, I'll be happy to provide.