Citroen C3 - Exhaust blowing under bonnet and bad starting

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JamesQB
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Citroen C3 - Exhaust blowing under bonnet and bad starting

Post by JamesQB »

Hi everyone,

Had a problem suddenly start with my C3 just a few days ago. It sounds like the exhaust is blowing beneath the bonnet (sounds like a tractor), and it's really hard to start; takes multiple attempts and then belches lots of grey smoke into the air.

Lifted the bonnet tonight but too dark to see much, other than that the engine is squashed into an impossibly small space. Couldn't even see where the exhaust manifold should be.

Does anyone know of this problem, or if it's most likely that the exhaust manifold is leaking and that's also contributing to very hard starting?

I don't think these C3s have glow plugs, or if they do, they aren't normally used unless the temperature is in the negative numbers (apparently). Either way, the noise is still there and it sounds terrible.

Thanks,
James
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Post by mr_apisto »

I'd say that the 2 are almost certainly related. Best thing you can do is take it to a mechanic :shock: Fact is that direct injection/common rail systems, if they go wrong, have a double problem. If the exhaust is bust, you got no back pressure so the high pressure plenum won't be working properly, if the seal between the plenum and the cylinder is a prob so you've got probs. What engine do you have? If it's a turbo then that could have blown.
You really need to know where the blow is coming from before you can fix it.
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Post by wheeler »

the injector seals will be leaking & allowing combustion gasses to escape. if you look around the base of the injectors (you can see them if you look with a light) you will see a build up of carbon on the cylinder head around the base of the injector. the seals are cheap but not the best job to do.
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Post by AndersDK »

Get it fixed fast and properly. You dont want to burn/blow a ridge up the side of the injector :shock:
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Post by mooseshaver »

Has your car been serviced recentley?
After my C3 has a service I kept smelling exaust fumes when I stopped. Took it to another Dealer and they found the Dealer that serviced it had not tightened up the firerings correctly.
No idea what a Firering is but it might help.
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Post by CitroJim »

mooseshaver wrote:Took it to another Dealer and they found the Dealer that serviced it had not tightened up the firerings correctly.
No idea what a Firering is but it might help.
Gosh, that's shockingly slack workmanship :shock:

Fire Rings (or Fire Washers) are the injector seals. Why though, would the injectors be disturbed on a service? On the old IDI TD engines they only needed pulling out if the injectors were showing signs of needing a refurbish. They would never be disturbed on a routine service.

Or do these modern HDi engines need their injectors serviced on a regular basis now?
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Post by mooseshaver »

citrojim wrote: Why though, would the injectors be disturbed on a service?
Perhaps is wasn't a service but one of the many times they tried to fix the loss of power problem it had. Its been a few years since I changed to my C5.
I've a vague recollection that injectors on that engine came loose but could be imagineing that. Its was the HDi 92HP version.

At least I know what a firering is, thanks.
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Post by JamesQB »

Thanks for all the helpful replies. I haven't yet had a chance to look under the bonnet yet, and not sure if I'll be able to see them easily as it's such a tiny engine compartment.

Have phoned the local Citroen garage, though, as the car is needed for work as of next week, and told them the symptoms. The chap there said immediately it's becoming a common problem with the C3s and they've already fixed a few, and that it is the injector seals failing.

He said that the old injectors seem to break or something when removed and so new seals alone aren't the answer, but new injectors at a cost of £212 per injector. He also said that if the injector isn't broken or whatever when removing it, they've tried sticking new seals on and putting them back but the engines just wont start. Apparently his garage have complained to Citroen but that Citroen haven't accepted it's a stock fault or in any way been helpful.

So, he said worst case scenario of all 4 injectors needing replacement would cost us - with their labour charges - £1600. What a great Christmas present when we've got a mortgage and no spare cash now. Don't know what we're going to do. He said we could pay in instalments but I'm still reeling from it. Not sure if I'd be up to buying injectors myself and fitting them, or at least trying new seals first - never worked on injectors before.

All the best,
James

** edit **

Just realised that at no point in my posts did I say what the car is, other than it's a C3! It's a 1.4 HDi diesel.
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Post by nick »

I think it could it be worth taking it to a diesel injection specialist. They tend to be both better and cheaper than main dealers when it comes to fixing faults with common rail diesels. They are often the people Citroen dealers take cars to when they can't fix the fault themselves!
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Post by JamesQB »

Thanks for the advice.
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Post by JamesQB »

Well, for the sake of a quick fix as we need this car for work, we took the car to the Citroen dealer around here and the boss has told us that the injectors are fine, and he's put his personal guarantee on it should he be proved wrong. He started off the conversation by saying they couldn't find anything wrong with the car or any abnormal noise, other than apparent glowplug trouble.

Spoke to the actual mechanic who looked it over and he confirmed that the injectors and seals seemed fine.

The boss man told us that it probably needs a new glowplug or plugs (that's supposed to explain the trouble starting and clouds of smoke), and that the noise is due to something that is loose under the bonnet to do with the air intake and that they've cable-tied it to make it quieter (referring to the roar under the bonnet that sounds like a tractor's residing beneath), but that these cars are noisy anyway. Irrelevant to me as it simply wasn't anything like so noisy under the bonnet before - even someone whose house we regularly visit heard us drive off and said we needed to have it checked out as the exhaust sounded like it was blowing.

Haven't driven it myself yet, only the wife has, and she said it was quieter when she picked it up from Citroen but now seems just as noisy again. This business with the noise being from something loose baffles me, it's not clattering, banging, knocking or anything - it's roaring like it would if you removed the muffler, but beneath the bonnet area.

I'll have a look myself when I get a chance, wondering if the air intake box has come loose and so noise is coming straight out from the engine intake manifold...? I know from Redex'ing petrol engines that when you remove the air filter to pour some down the carb that you get lots of noise that was previously being suppressed by the air filter, etc.

Incidentally, they didn't check the glowplugs, he said he assumes that's the trouble. Still doesn't explain why the trouble starting with plumes of smoke and the terribly loud noise under the bonnet started at the same time, if Citroen are correct and one problem is glowplugs and the other a loose part on the air intake side...coincidence? Bit too much for me.
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Post by nick »

There's something very odd here!
I think you're right in your original post to say that HDi engines don't need glow plugs in anything other than very low temperatures, which tends to be true of direct injection diesel engines in general.
If you want to prove/disprove this you could test the glowplugs with a multimeter. I don't know about the 1.4, but on the 2.0 HDi the glow plugs seem to have a very low resistance (about .02 ohms each) when working correctly. They should also be recieving 12V for a second or less just before starting, then 12V again whilst the engine is actually cranking on the starter.

Combined with the "tractor" noise though, I wonder if its something like the air intake trunking is collapsed internally and impeding the air flow?
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Post by JamesQB »

It is a bit of an odd one with the glow plugs, and I can't seem to find any information on the net about this car in relation to them. The instrument panel has no preheating symbol like with my Xantia 1.9TD, so there is no indication glow plugs are coming on. You can jump in and start the engine immediately without waiting and it starts first time even in the cold (or did, before this fault).

All I did manage to find on the net was a post on another forum in which someone said they do have glowplugs but they they only come on when the temperature is -5 or below. Not that cold here yet. Out of interest, do newer diesels dispense with the usual preheater dash light?

As for the blowing noise under the bonnet, apparently whatever they did improved it for a short while (drive back home and another outting), and they claimed to have cable-tied something. Seems a slapdash job saying that that's the only cure, what kind of car has no fix other than some cable ties? All very odd.
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Post by nick »

From another site;

Engine coolant temperature/Pre-heating duration

- 30 °C 16 seconds
- 10 °C 5 seconds
0 °C 0.5 seconds
10 °C 0.25 seconds
18 °C 0 seconds
40 °C 0 seconds


...thats for the 2.0, but the 1.4 is likely to be the same or very similar.
I don't know if the C3 HDi has a preheat warning light, but the Xsara does.
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Post by nick »

I suddenly remembered I have the entire Citroen training manual for the Delphi fuel system on the C3 HDi in PDF format on my hard disk!
Its in 2 sections, 67 and 87 pages respectively, and just over 1MB each.
If it would help let me have your email address and I'll send it. :)
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