Rear anti-sink?

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 16 Apr 2008, 09:00

OK, hopefully the final question on this subject for me, does anyone know if you get new seals with the sphere if you buy it from gsf or do you have to get them seperately?

Cheers

Post by **CitroJim** » 16 Apr 2008, 09:14

Penguin wrote:OK, hopefully the final question on this subject for me, does anyone know if you get new seals with the sphere if you buy it from gsf or do you have to get them seperately?

Cheers

Generally, yes you do although I have had the occasional one without but then they were Activa spheres and lacking in plastic caps as well...

In any case, they're very cheap from Citroen. I'd put a note on your GSF order or ask when you call them to ensure seals are supplied. They're normally very good like this.

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 16 Apr 2008, 09:36

Thanks Citrojim, one further question, I have a copy of the Haynes manual and it doesn't say how to change the Accumulator Sphere, is it the same process as changing a suspension one?

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 16 Apr 2008, 10:48

Jeez, I still keep coming up with questions! Hopefully this will really be the last one. Is there an easy way to tell whether I have anti-sink on my car or not? THe reason I ask is that according to Haynes the depressurising procedure is different.

Cheers

Post by **myglaren** » 16 Apr 2008, 11:05

Penguin wrote:Jeez, I still keep coming up with questions! Hopefully this will really be the last one. Is there an easy way to tell whether I have anti-sink on my car or not? THe reason I ask is that according to Haynes the depressurising procedure is different.

Cheers

Can't help you with that, took mine to a garage to be done and didn't take a whole lot of notice of the depressurisation sequence. It was about eight years ago too.

Questions is what it is all about though. We all benefit from reading about one another's experiences and difficulties. The answers to your questions are always useful to someone else.

It would be great if it were all organised into a database so all the answers to all the questions were readily available but who would volunteer fro such a mammoth task? There are always quirks that such a database couldn't respond to like the RL people here can. You could search the forums for answers and that is not such a bad idea but asking the same question again can produce a different set of answers based on new experiences.
Keeps the forums alive.

Post by **CitroJim** » 16 Apr 2008, 11:48

That, Steve, is a very good idea

As you say, it's a mammoth task though

The search function on the forum will often pull up what is wanted but if you pop in "acclumualtor sphere" to the search it returns about 50,000 matches and it's hard to drill down to specifics.. It's only a simple search engine.

Don't ever worry about asking questions Penguin, that, as Steve says, is what a forum like this is all about so please keep on asking away. From my perspective, it is impossible to ask too many questions here and I'd rather you asked and got the right answer rather than trying without and potentially damaging something.

I'll do a basic sphere swapping guide when I have a few moments unless I'm beaten to it. There are a number of significant potential pitfalls to be aware of and one big safety issue.

So, keep those questions coming!

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 16 Apr 2008, 12:06

Thanks for the reassurance people! A mate (who is far more mechanically capable than me) and myself are going to attempt to replace the aforementioned Acc Sphere tomorrow after work so any help will be gratefully received.

As you mentioned Citrojim, the search function can be a useful tool but can all too often return so many incorrect answers that it just makes you say 'Sod it, I'll just ask again!'. This is a problem with Forums in general.

Thanks again

Post by **CitroJim** » 16 Apr 2008, 16:56

Hi penguin,

A quick and rough guide on how to swap an accumulator sphere:

1. Engine running, suspension on high, support the front very firmly on axle stands. SAFETY - HYDRAULIC CITROENS CAN COLLAPSE AND SUDDENLY SINK when woring on hydraulics so ALWAYS support very firmly. They can crush and kill.

2. Set suspension on low, wait until it is down and open the bleed valve (12mm bolt on pressure regulator) 1/2 a turn until you hear a wooshing sound of LHM rushing back to the reservoir. Switch off. NEVER fully remove the bleed valve unless you enjoy searching for tiny springs and balls

3. Clean around the accumulator. Either apply a special sphere removal tool to the sphere or a meaty (and I mean meaty) strap wrench and unscrew counter-clockwise. Be prepared for LHM spillage and that the sphere is suprisingly heavy. Retrieve the old seal if it did not come off with the old sphere. The old sphere may be very, very tight.

4. Clean up and note there is a groove in the sphere housing on the pressure regulator. Dip the new seal in LHM and place it in the groove and NOT on the sphere itself. Screw in the new sphere hand-tight only.

5. Nip up the pressure regulator bleed valve, start up, allow the system to pressurise, up onto high, remove axle stands and check LHM level. Top up if necessary. Do "Citarobics".

Job done. Follow the same procedure for the front corner spheres. Don't do the rear corner spheres or the anti-sink sphere without seeking further advice from here. Both these need special treatment.

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 16 Apr 2008, 18:41

Thanks CitroJim. Only one query according to Haynes depressurisation (sp?) procedure it depends on whether you have an anti-sink valve or not as to whether you open the bleed valve before or after setting the suspension to low. Your procedure (according to Haynes) is for cars WITH an anti-sink valve whereas my car hasn't got one (I don't think) and so they say I should open the valve and then lower the suspension.

Thanks for the rest of the info.

Cheers

Edit: presumably thats anti-clockwise looking at it from the drivers side of the car?

Post by **admiral51** » 16 Apr 2008, 19:17

yes as you look at the sphere (all of them i think) they unscrew anti clockwise and do up clockwise

if you suspect that the LHM resevoir has been overfilled i would suggest you syphon some out before depressurising the system as this process send most of the LHM back to the resevoir you could end up with a bit of a mess.i would do the syphoning whilst the setting is on high this way you can get the level correct before you start removing the acc sphere

i have to confess to never having done this to a non anti sink car but my understanding is that when you set the suspension to low then this should return LHM to the tank anyway.i would personally do it the way for a xantia with anti sink but thats just me having a stab in the dark

im not 100% sure that the info in the BOL is aimed at a hydractive xantia im sure someone will soon put me right

And please keep asking questions im one of the many that only know what i do about xantias from this forums questions and answers

Colin

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 17 Apr 2008, 07:54

Cheers

If the part turns up today (from GSF) then I will post how I got on tomorrow.

Edit: It's just arrived (8:00), so wish me luck!

Post by **CitroJim** » 17 Apr 2008, 08:24

You'll be fine Penguin

Just don't hesitate to ask if you're not sure of anything.

With a non anti-sink, the bleed valve can be opened with the engine off as soon as the suspension has reached its lowest point. The procedure I gave was what should strictly be followed for anti-sink and hydractive systems and is done to ensure the corner spheres have a chance to depressurise before the anti-sink valves close and trap pressure in the corner spheres. On a non anti-sink it really makes little difference.

Colin is right, they all unscrew anti-clockwise as you look at them.

Have fun!

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 17 Apr 2008, 19:36

Well, unfortunately we failed in our efforts. Could not get the old one to shift. We tried both methods to depressurise and didn't hear any 'whistling' or 'rushing' noises when undoing the relief screw. The guy helping me is a fairly solid unit and he couldn't get the thing to budge so after an hour we gave up. I'll get a local mechanic to do it. On the plus side, we did manage to lubricate and grease the height adjuster mechanism and the car now goes up and down as she should so it wasn't a total waste of time.

Penguin · Post by **Penguin** » 18 Apr 2008, 08:31

Another Question! How much pressure do you expect to feel on the pressure release valve? If you take it all the way out, how far does the ball & spring fly off, or does it just drop out? How tight do you need to do it back up? My mate was wondering all of these things this morning because we didn't hear any whistling or anything when he undid the valve he did wonder whether the valve had been out before and the ball/spring may have been lost. So how should it 'feel' when opening/closing etc?

Cheers

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 18 Apr 2008, 08:50

Penguin wrote:Another Question! How much pressure do you expect to feel on the pressure release valve?

The design is such that the high pressure is behind the seated ball which the bolt presses on, and the overflow port is nearer the end of the bolt, followed by an o-ring half way up the bolt.

When the bolt is tight there is no pressure acting on the o-ring because the ball seals against its seat. As soon as you undo the bolt half a turn the pressure drops to almost nothing so there is very little pressure acting on the o-ring.

If you take it all the way out, how far does the ball & spring fly off, or does it just drop out? How tight do you need to do it back up?

If you do take it right out (and normally you never would) it wont fly out under high pressure, but there will be enough flow of oil that it will come out like a gently turned on tap. There is no spring - only a 7mm ball, which is rather easy to loose.

I actually took it right out on mine recently because I suspected a bit of grit or rubber stuck in the ball valve seat and fitted it back in again - but there are two traps to fall into, the obvious one is losing the ball, (make sure you catch it in a container) the other is that the return line goes back to the resovior tank, and it will siphon ALL the oil out of the tank if you're not careful.

If you're taking the bleed valve out for some reason you need to disconnect the main return like to the LHM resovior first to prevent that - usually the large thick pipe second from the front of the tank on a Xantia.

As for tightening it - never over tighten it. It's not a bolt that you're torquing up on a panel its pressing against a 7mm ball sitting in a seat and over tightening it will only pit the ball. Just "nipped" lightly with a standard length spanner is all you need.

My mate was wondering all of these things this morning because we didn't hear any whistling or anything when he undid the valve he did wonder whether the valve had been out before and the ball/spring may have been lost. So how should it 'feel' when opening/closing etc?

Sometimes they don't whistle.... it depends on the condition of the accumulator sphere and a few other factors I haven't figured out myself - sometimes mine makes a loud obvious whistle when I bleed it, other times it doesn't...

If the ball is missing it will not seal when its closed and the system won't be able to build up pressure and/or will lose it very quickly when the motor is stopped. Very unlikely if the suspension is still working.

The "feel" of tightening the bolt is that it will be easy most of the way and then it will get tight over about a quarter of a turn. It does feel a bit more "squashy" than tightening a normal nut and bolt.

There is really nothing that can go wrong with the release valve to prevent it depressurizing - if you've turned it anti-clockwise half a turn, rest assured that it will be depressurized, and the difficulty you're having getting the sphere off will just be that its been overtightened and/or rusted on the faces.

For a really stubborn accumulator sphere, here's my method - put the front up on ramps so you can get at it from underneath, spray the junction between the sphere and the regulator with some penetrating lubricant (I use LPS1) and give it a few minutes, then get one guy holding the sphere removal tool and applying strong but steady force from the underneath side of the car, and a second guy with a 2 pound block hammer giving the sphere body a good wack with the hammer, don't hit it on the end of the sphere where the filler plug is, rather hit it at the regulator end at about a 45 degree angle.

Almost guaranteed to work - the extra jolt from the hammer while the torque is applied from the strap spanner will break the rust bond. Removing stubborn spheres is as much about technique as it is brute force.

When fitting the new sphere only tighten it as tight as you can with two bare hands - don't use the strap spanner for refitting.

Regards,
Simon