Diagnose duff CV joint?

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Diagnose duff CV joint?

Post by RichardW »

My Sister's Xantia has got a wobble - steering shakes from side to side when driving along. My Dad went through it and replaced front and rear pads and freed the brakes off, and swapped all the tyres round but it didn't go away - and is reportedly getting worse. We're pretty sure it is a CV joint, but so far none of the usual clanking - hmm, could it be a tri-ax joint? So how to diagnose if this is the case, and which one it is? Only thing I can think of is to jack up one side at a time and drive each wheel to see if it wobbles - any better ideas?

My money is on the N/S joint - well it would be, as I was down there too, and we replaced the N/S driveshaft seal as it was leaking, and filled the box with the proper oil - will need doing again if it's that side :twisted:
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Post by Peter.N. »

The triax joints can wear but only after a very high mileage and it feels more like a vibration than a wobble. When you say your dad swapped the tyres round, do you mean both rears for both fronts, because it still sounds like a wheel or tyre issue to me. The only way I would think that a CV joint could cause it was if it was siezing up, but that would make it difficult to steer. Is the problem worse or better at any particular speed, or is it there all the time?
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Post by CitroJim »

Check your lower swivel joints Richard. they can cause all sorts of wobblies. I must say though, when one failed on my TD I felt it more under braking than acceleration.
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Post by RichardW »

I think wheels were swapped front / rear, and the spare came into play too. It's a very rythmic vibration, definitely associated with wheel rotation - you can feel it through the car, and if you let go of the steering wheel it rocks from side to side. Worse at lower speeds, but still there at higher speeds, just less noticeable (probably to do with resonant frequencies). Car was MOT < 1 month ago nothing picked up except a slight play in a drop link - this is the only noise the car makes. Because it's a rythmic vibration independent of road surface I'm sure it's wheel / hub / CV joint related.

Can't look at it unfortunatley - car lives near Abersytwyth, I live near Glasgow... we just both happened to be at my parents in the middle when my Dad was doing a bit of servicing on the car (it was his before he bought a C4).
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Post by citronut »

if you had binding brakes you might have warpped disc/s, check if the wobble is more pominent just after braking
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Post by bxbodger »

Jack each corner in turn and spin the wheel and eyeball it- you probably have nothing more than an out of round tyre.

It's very unlikely to be a CV joint- an old style spider UJ will give horrendous vibration on it's way out, even with virtually no measurable play, but not a CV joint, theyare much more forgiving.

My money's on a tyre.
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Post by reblack68 »

That sounds like the sort of vibration you got from SAABs when the inner CV joints were worn. The cure for them was to swap the joints side for side, this effectively doubled the joint's life.
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Post by Mandrake »

Surely a CV joint wouldn't cause the steering wheel to visibly wobble ? Remember while driving straight ahead at normal suspension height a CV joint is basically doing nothing, as the shaft is nearly going straight into the joint.

I'd be looking for old out of round tyres and/or warped/buckled wheel rims if they're steel rims and have had an impact with the curb.

With each wheel off the ground in turn spin it over by hand and watch the tyre tread to see if the tyre is out of round, or the rim is wobbling. Also get the wheel balance checked - it's not uncommon for balance weights to fall off and go missing, throwing the wheel completely out of balance. (Or on the left wheels for scrapes with the curb to rip a balance weight off)

From your description of how its worse at low speed and gets a bit better at higher speeds my money is on an out of round tyre - as I have had a similar problem before with an out of round spare tyre.

Until you've confirmed the wheels and tyres are ok, its a bit pointless looking for more complicated and expensive explanations...

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Post by RichardW »

I'm pretty sure the tyres were swapped front to rear with no impact on the wobble.

I have come across this once before in a C15 van that I was looking at buying - quoted as needing a new CV joint. No noise just a violent rocking of the steering wheel at low speeds - this one was really bad like 1/4 turn or more!

The CV joint is probably not 'straight' in straight ahead running - it's usually bent in the vertical plane. I think what happens is that one (or more) of the balls gets sticky, then as the joint rotates, instead of the ball sliding up and down in the cage to take up the vertical movement it pulls the cage around with it, hence jerking the steering. Given that we're not near it, it's probably going to have to go the garage anyway.... :roll:
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Post by AndersDK »

RichardW wrote:I'm pretty sure the tyres were swapped front to rear with no impact on the wobble.

I have come across this once before in a C15 van that I was looking at buying - quoted as needing a new CV joint. No noise just a violent rocking of the steering wheel at low speeds - this one was really bad like 1/4 turn or more!

The CV joint is probably not 'straight' in straight ahead running - it's usually bent in the vertical plane. I think what happens is that one (or more) of the balls gets sticky, then as the joint rotates, instead of the ball sliding up and down in the cage to take up the vertical movement it pulls the cage around with it, hence jerking the steering. Given that we're not near it, it's probably going to have to go the garage anyway.... :roll:
If your theory is correct, try driving it in the next higher position. That should certainly worsen matters, as then the defective ball now has 2 planes to trash the cage around ...
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Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:I'm pretty sure the tyres were swapped front to rear with no impact on the wobble.
Hi Richard,

Swapping front and rear isn't really enough to prove whats going on - believe it or not, badly out of round tyres or warped wheel rims can still vibrate the steering wheel even if they're on the rear! Perhaps not so much on a Xantia, but I've certainly had that effect before on a Daihatsu Charrade where a warped rear rim would vibrate the car and the steering wheel at speed.

Also that assumes that only the front tyres are bad - what if they all have the same problem ? (Perhaps due to low mileage, but extreme age and exposure to UV)

Again, I would do a careful inspection of the tyres first and get the wheel balance of all 4 checked - much easier than replacing suspect driveshafts only to find it didn't fix the problem...
I have come across this once before in a C15 van that I was looking at buying - quoted as needing a new CV joint. No noise just a violent rocking of the steering wheel at low speeds - this one was really bad like 1/4 turn or more!

The CV joint is probably not 'straight' in straight ahead running - it's usually bent in the vertical plane.
Depends on the car - on the Xantia its pretty close to straight, but not perfect. (I'd have to have a look to check)

The GS was famous for having the gearbox outputs low enough that the drive shaft joints were EXACTLY straight at normal ride height - at a time when most cars had them angling down to the wheels. Citroen try to do this whenever possible...
I think what happens is that one (or more) of the balls gets sticky, then as the joint rotates, instead of the ball sliding up and down in the cage to take up the vertical movement it pulls the cage around with it, hence jerking the steering. Given that we're not near it, it's probably going to have to go the garage anyway.... :roll:
Well if its an outer CV joint then driving in circles in a large empty carpark will soon prove it one way or the other - as soon as you apply any significant amount of lock the problem should get much worse. If it doesn't it's not the CV joint...

Regards,
Simon
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Post by citronut »

you did say in your first post you had to free of the brakes, as i said earlyer if they were binding you might have over heated the discs which could have caused them to warp, this can give you a sever wobble especialy if its the on front brakes
regards malcolm
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