I wish to change the cambelt on a 1.9td xantia along with the tensioners and water pump. Its not something I've done before, having paid the garage last time. I think I have all the necessary tools and I've been studying the forum and haynes quite closely. I am not 100% confident that I will do it right but I am fortunate in that I have a spare car which is no longer fit for the road so will attempt to take everything off that one and refit it first. Engine still runs on it so I'll be able to see if I was a tooth out when the job is done.
Are there common pitfalls to avoid? I know its a squeeze but I think I'm prepared. What worries me though is that severel mechenics have said its a hard one so they wont do it. Are they just being lazy because they could change oil and brakes all day for the same money or is this truly one for the very experienced?
I'm definetly going to have a go on the poor old car regardless. Theres no other way to learn. Have to see if I'm good enough to do it on the new car. It won't be too bad if I can't as the belt on it isn't to old. Its just that I like to have a new belt when I get a new car and I can't afford a garage at the minute but have spare time. Any advice to make it go more smoothly would be gratefully accepted.
1.9td cambelt change
Moderator: RichardW
IMHO the job is dead easy -
The snag is that the job is a knuckle killer. You will end up with skinned hands when job is completed
- because of the very limited access down there between engine and inner wing.
Another snag may be the crank belt pulley has slipped in the vulcanisation, thus its timing index hole is completely goosed up
I recommand you use a lenght of threaded rod bend to catch the flywheel index hole under the starter motor. Even considered the extra hassle removing the starter motor may remove ANY uncertainty indexing the engine axles correctly.
The alternative is to Tipp-ex the old belt and cogs for position markers - then copy/transfer the markings from old belt to new belt and fit as pr cog markings. Be sure all 3 axle cogs are marked up : cam, pump & crank
The snag is that the job is a knuckle killer. You will end up with skinned hands when job is completed
- because of the very limited access down there between engine and inner wing.
Another snag may be the crank belt pulley has slipped in the vulcanisation, thus its timing index hole is completely goosed up
I recommand you use a lenght of threaded rod bend to catch the flywheel index hole under the starter motor. Even considered the extra hassle removing the starter motor may remove ANY uncertainty indexing the engine axles correctly.
The alternative is to Tipp-ex the old belt and cogs for position markers - then copy/transfer the markings from old belt to new belt and fit as pr cog markings. Be sure all 3 axle cogs are marked up : cam, pump & crank
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Hiya.
I changed my cambelt on my Xantia and so long as you just take your time, you'll be fine.
Best advice I can give is not to follow haynes on this one as they seem to take you round the houses a bit.
Hardest bit is getting the crank pulley bolt out- warm the engine beforehand to "loosen" the threadlock and use a good breaker bar.
Also lock off all the pulleys and flywheel at the correct position with bolts and a metal bar/pin/drill whatever through the little hole in the bellhousing. This can be a bit awkward as you can get slightly out in that the bolts will go in but the pin will not but turn the engine over a few more degrees till the pulley bolts line up again and the pin should go in too.
Once it's all locked off and the covers are off, mark the teeth on the timing belt where it goes over each pulley with a white paint pen. When the belt's off transfer the marks onto the new belt, counting the teeth between. This is an extra safeguard to make sure you don't get one tooth out when you put it on.
Apart from that it's just a case of take you time.
Oh, getting to the cover bolts is a bit fiddly and you have to take off the engine mounting so make sure you support the engine from underneath with wood and a jack. One of the bolts (the hardest to get at at the back) is also a different size!!!!!! 11mm if I recall.
I also used a bit of wood to brace the side of the engine nearest to the windscreen as the engine tends to try and tip back once the mounting is removed.
Hope that helps.
Any more queries let me know.
I changed my cambelt on my Xantia and so long as you just take your time, you'll be fine.
Best advice I can give is not to follow haynes on this one as they seem to take you round the houses a bit.
Hardest bit is getting the crank pulley bolt out- warm the engine beforehand to "loosen" the threadlock and use a good breaker bar.
Also lock off all the pulleys and flywheel at the correct position with bolts and a metal bar/pin/drill whatever through the little hole in the bellhousing. This can be a bit awkward as you can get slightly out in that the bolts will go in but the pin will not but turn the engine over a few more degrees till the pulley bolts line up again and the pin should go in too.
Once it's all locked off and the covers are off, mark the teeth on the timing belt where it goes over each pulley with a white paint pen. When the belt's off transfer the marks onto the new belt, counting the teeth between. This is an extra safeguard to make sure you don't get one tooth out when you put it on.
Apart from that it's just a case of take you time.
Oh, getting to the cover bolts is a bit fiddly and you have to take off the engine mounting so make sure you support the engine from underneath with wood and a jack. One of the bolts (the hardest to get at at the back) is also a different size!!!!!! 11mm if I recall.
I also used a bit of wood to brace the side of the engine nearest to the windscreen as the engine tends to try and tip back once the mounting is removed.
Hope that helps.
Any more queries let me know.
Saxo 1.5 XD 1998
(previously owned Xantia 1.9 TD sx 1995)
(previously owned Xantia 1.9 TD sx 1995)
Excellent, this is the sort of stuff i was hoping to hear. Thankyou.
I'll be starting this in a week so I'll just take my time and when in doubt I'll refer back to you on the forum.
Ooh, meant to ask as well. If the oil seal looks ok is it worth replacing for peace of mind? Is that a fairly easy task?
Also the tensioner and roller. Roller sounds easy, tensioner I can't really make out what Haynes is on about. Will it be fairly obvious what to do when I get there?
Thanks again.
I'll be starting this in a week so I'll just take my time and when in doubt I'll refer back to you on the forum.
Ooh, meant to ask as well. If the oil seal looks ok is it worth replacing for peace of mind? Is that a fairly easy task?
Also the tensioner and roller. Roller sounds easy, tensioner I can't really make out what Haynes is on about. Will it be fairly obvious what to do when I get there?
Thanks again.
Last edited by elma on 16 Aug 2007, 23:34, edited 1 time in total.
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CitroJim
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It is not tremendously difficult Elma, except for one thing. There is an 11mm bolt holding the rear cam cover and it is very nearly inaccessible, being down and behind and out of sight. It is also fouled by the turbo air pipe and the return fuel line.
The bolt can be felt (just) after disconnecting the turbo air pipe from the front of the turbo and swinging it out of the way. A "Crowsfoot" 11mm spanner helps but even with one it is still a challange. Last time I did one (this weekend, to swap an injection pump) this dammed bolt took me an hour to loosen and a grazed arm into the bargain
The other thing you need is a tool to retract the tensioner. Make one using a short extension from a 3/8" drive socket set. The 3/8" square end fits the tensioner perfectly and if you grind two flats on the other end you can use a spanner on it to turn it. Undo the tensioner pinch bolt a good way as if you just loosen it a little it you may not get the full tensioner travel you need.
You MUST lock the crankshaft using a pin in the hole behind the starter. You may be lucky and find the hole without needing to remove the starter.
The crank pulley bolt may be very tight. Try with a breaker bar with 5th gear engaged and the handbrake on very hard. Also, do it with the engine warm to help soften any locktite. Don't try to loosen it against a timing pin stuck in the hole behind the starter motor or with timing pins in the cam and pump sprockets.
If it won't budge, do the old trick of using a T bar jammed under the wishbone and flick the starter briefly (after making certain the engine cannot fire). This never fails to shock the bolt loose but as I say, a last resort.
Replace the waterpump whilst you are there.
Finally, on reassembly, check and recheck the timing before going for a start. It really is very critical and it can jump a tooth when the tensioner takes up tension if you're not careful. I let the tensioner "go" but leave the pinch and pivot bolts a little slack and rotate the engine twice. If the timing is still spot-on I then tighten the tensioner pinch and pivot bolts and spin the engine twice more. If the timing is still good, I'll go for a start.
I heartily agree with practicing on a dead 'un. A good policy always.
The bolt can be felt (just) after disconnecting the turbo air pipe from the front of the turbo and swinging it out of the way. A "Crowsfoot" 11mm spanner helps but even with one it is still a challange. Last time I did one (this weekend, to swap an injection pump) this dammed bolt took me an hour to loosen and a grazed arm into the bargain
The other thing you need is a tool to retract the tensioner. Make one using a short extension from a 3/8" drive socket set. The 3/8" square end fits the tensioner perfectly and if you grind two flats on the other end you can use a spanner on it to turn it. Undo the tensioner pinch bolt a good way as if you just loosen it a little it you may not get the full tensioner travel you need.
You MUST lock the crankshaft using a pin in the hole behind the starter. You may be lucky and find the hole without needing to remove the starter.
The crank pulley bolt may be very tight. Try with a breaker bar with 5th gear engaged and the handbrake on very hard. Also, do it with the engine warm to help soften any locktite. Don't try to loosen it against a timing pin stuck in the hole behind the starter motor or with timing pins in the cam and pump sprockets.
If it won't budge, do the old trick of using a T bar jammed under the wishbone and flick the starter briefly (after making certain the engine cannot fire). This never fails to shock the bolt loose but as I say, a last resort.
Replace the waterpump whilst you are there.
Finally, on reassembly, check and recheck the timing before going for a start. It really is very critical and it can jump a tooth when the tensioner takes up tension if you're not careful. I let the tensioner "go" but leave the pinch and pivot bolts a little slack and rotate the engine twice. If the timing is still spot-on I then tighten the tensioner pinch and pivot bolts and spin the engine twice more. If the timing is still good, I'll go for a start.
I heartily agree with practicing on a dead 'un. A good policy always.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Hi James.
As you know, I did this very job a week ago!! I DO still have skin on my
knuckles too!!
Make life a whole lot easier for yourself getting the top timing cover off
by loosening the induction plastic pipework enough to improve movement
for access to the last unseen and barely felt bolt - it is 11mm by the way.
The bolt lies in an orientation pointing flat towards the front of the car and
is a real git to undo.
I used a proper set of pins to lock all the pulleys and removed the starter
as it's not worth cutting that important corner for EXTRA piece of mind
getting the engine in the correct position before starting the work.
I bought a set of tensioners and baulked at their actual replacement as the
front idler was undercut behind a bracket holding the spring tensioning
mechanism on the other tensioner - although I undid it's 3x bolts, there
was no clear sign of manipulating it off and after a very thorough close
examination of that I eventually didn't change it or the swivel tensioning
one - I didn't fancy the spring all unravelling!! I ACCEPT THAT MAY HAVE
BEEN A BAD MOVE, and I have experienced a failed tensioner on an Xm
recently, though the belt and tensioners were said to be recent anyway
by the previous owner and did look like they were to validate his claim.
The water pump had failed its sealing around the bearing so I did
exchange it for a new one anyhow!
The actual bolt on the crank actually did undo with a long bar out through
the wheelarch after I locked the teeth on the flywheel from above at the
joint with the gearbox using a sturdy chisel. It was a simple case of tuning
the correct timing position to pin it all right. I couldn't actually see any way
of getting the new belt wrong on the pulleys even without any timing
marks although I was careful about the routing and any unwanted slack!!
I'll be changing a water pump on my 1993 TD VSX any day now if you
fancy watching and having a laugh once you're mobile!!
All the best, speak shortly, Andrew
As you know, I did this very job a week ago!! I DO still have skin on my
knuckles too!!
Make life a whole lot easier for yourself getting the top timing cover off
by loosening the induction plastic pipework enough to improve movement
for access to the last unseen and barely felt bolt - it is 11mm by the way.
The bolt lies in an orientation pointing flat towards the front of the car and
is a real git to undo.
I used a proper set of pins to lock all the pulleys and removed the starter
as it's not worth cutting that important corner for EXTRA piece of mind
getting the engine in the correct position before starting the work.
I bought a set of tensioners and baulked at their actual replacement as the
front idler was undercut behind a bracket holding the spring tensioning
mechanism on the other tensioner - although I undid it's 3x bolts, there
was no clear sign of manipulating it off and after a very thorough close
examination of that I eventually didn't change it or the swivel tensioning
one - I didn't fancy the spring all unravelling!! I ACCEPT THAT MAY HAVE
BEEN A BAD MOVE, and I have experienced a failed tensioner on an Xm
recently, though the belt and tensioners were said to be recent anyway
by the previous owner and did look like they were to validate his claim.
The water pump had failed its sealing around the bearing so I did
exchange it for a new one anyhow!
The actual bolt on the crank actually did undo with a long bar out through
the wheelarch after I locked the teeth on the flywheel from above at the
joint with the gearbox using a sturdy chisel. It was a simple case of tuning
the correct timing position to pin it all right. I couldn't actually see any way
of getting the new belt wrong on the pulleys even without any timing
marks although I was careful about the routing and any unwanted slack!!
I'll be changing a water pump on my 1993 TD VSX any day now if you
fancy watching and having a laugh once you're mobile!!
All the best, speak shortly, Andrew
If you buy a proprietary kit you may find it impossible to find the hole in the block by the starter . The reason is simply that the bar may be too thick - as I found - at 8.06mm.
The answer is to use something like a junior hacksaw frame which is about 6mm to find the hole.
On earlier engines with a solid crank pulley its not necessary to remove the crank pulley - just remove the small plastic cover over the belt - then the belt can be extracted and replaced. I don't know if you can do this on a later one with the larger damped pulley.
The answer is to use something like a junior hacksaw frame which is about 6mm to find the hole.
On earlier engines with a solid crank pulley its not necessary to remove the crank pulley - just remove the small plastic cover over the belt - then the belt can be extracted and replaced. I don't know if you can do this on a later one with the larger damped pulley.
jeremy
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CitroJim
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Good point Jeremyjeremy wrote:If you buy a proprietary kit you may find it impossible to find the hole in the block by the starter . The reason is simply that the bar may be too thick - as I found - at 8.06mm.
I always use a length of copper brake pipe. The advantage is that it is flexible enough to be bent to any shape needed to get into the hole without removing the starter motor. Every engine seems to need a different shape...
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Its easy when you know how! Spent a long time trying to get the bent bar from the kit in the hole - tried hacksaw frame - but couldn't find the hole - and feelings like 'has it got one' started to creep in so I dropped the starter off to find it! - Easy then with a hacksaw frame - I don't think an 8mm drill would go in but a 7.5 would so hole may be tight anyway. (Checked to make sure I'd found the right one - but couldn't find any others round there)
Still at least I know next time!
Still at least I know next time!
jeremy
Had a little search for locking up tools.
Their a bit hard to find.
This is the cheapest I can find
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/13-PIECE-DIESEL-A ... dZViewItem
But it looks prity rubbish and a few m8's would probably be as good
This is nearly as cheap
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BERGEN-DIESEL-TIM ... dZViewItem
It looks ok but no guarentee it will fit
This looks good but is bloody expensive
http://www.premiertoolsinternational.co ... SA_DW8.htm
Do you think I should get one of these? If so which is the cheapest one which will do. Or do you know where I can get a reasonably priced one which will do the job?
They seem a bit of a rip off for bolts and bent pipes. Especially the last one which is the one that looks prity good.
Their a bit hard to find.
This is the cheapest I can find
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/13-PIECE-DIESEL-A ... dZViewItem
But it looks prity rubbish and a few m8's would probably be as good
This is nearly as cheap
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BERGEN-DIESEL-TIM ... dZViewItem
It looks ok but no guarentee it will fit
This looks good but is bloody expensive
http://www.premiertoolsinternational.co ... SA_DW8.htm
Do you think I should get one of these? If so which is the cheapest one which will do. Or do you know where I can get a reasonably priced one which will do the job?
They seem a bit of a rip off for bolts and bent pipes. Especially the last one which is the one that looks prity good.
I'd get this one for the money. The pin running the width of the kit is the oneelma wrote: This is nearly as cheap
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BERGEN-DIESEL-TIM ... dZViewItem
It looks ok but no guarentee it will fit
stepped into the bell housing aperture that locks the flywheel. It does drop
beneath the starter but you'll need a great deal of faff to actually find the
opening The other threaded pins standing vertically in the box will be the
diesel pump and the cam shaft sprocket. It may appear a lot of money for
a few threaded bolts/pins but it'll be a reliable/safe starting off point for the
task in hand.
Andrew
Well I guess I'll be buying that then. I'm going to give it the weekend first though just in case I can find it cheaper. I really don't want to spend cash on that kit but I know I should. I'm often lecturing people for buying cheap disposable tools or using the wrong tool for a job.
I suppose it isn't bad value really, its still cheaper than paying for the belt to be changed and I can use it again and again.
I suppose it isn't bad value really, its still cheaper than paying for the belt to be changed and I can use it again and again.
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RichardW
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'13 3008 1.6 HDi GripControl - x 997
Get yourself down B&Q and buy 3 M8x 40 bolts, and a meter length of M8 threaded bar - cost about £2 
Now, chamfer the end of the bar, and bend the last 6 inches up about 15°. When you come to timing the engine, have the covers off and the car jacked up with the drivers wheel (only - otherwise the diff just spins the passenger wheel backwards 
), 4th gear engaged, h/brake off, stand by the drivers wing. Feed the bar in between the starter motor body and solenoid on the starter (make sure the battery is disconnected, you are awful close to the terminals!), and you should find the lead in to the timing hole on the front of the block - the bar should then follow in and hit the flywheel. You know when you have hit the flywheel as it makes a nice ringing noise. Now carefully turn the engine over forwards with your left hand on the wheel whilst you push on the bar with your right (now you know why it's a meter long!). Watch the cam sprocket - the timing position is about 4 o'clock - and keep pushing on the bar. As the hole comes past it should drop into the hole in flywheel, and you can then fit the bolts to the cam and pump sprocket. Job done. I can usually find the flywheel hole on the first pass now having done a couple. It's probably a wise idea to wrap a good wad of Duct tape around the other end of the bar - it sticks out right above the injection pump, and it would be easy to catch your eye or something on it 
Now, chamfer the end of the bar, and bend the last 6 inches up about 15°. When you come to timing the engine, have the covers off and the car jacked up with the drivers wheel (only - otherwise the diff just spins the passenger wheel backwards ), 4th gear engaged, h/brake off, stand by the drivers wing. Feed the bar in between the starter motor body and solenoid on the starter (make sure the battery is disconnected, you are awful close to the terminals!), and you should find the lead in to the timing hole on the front of the block - the bar should then follow in and hit the flywheel. You know when you have hit the flywheel as it makes a nice ringing noise. Now carefully turn the engine over forwards with your left hand on the wheel whilst you push on the bar with your right (now you know why it's a meter long!). Watch the cam sprocket - the timing position is about 4 o'clock - and keep pushing on the bar. As the hole comes past it should drop into the hole in flywheel, and you can then fit the bolts to the cam and pump sprocket. Job done. I can usually find the flywheel hole on the first pass now having done a couple. It's probably a wise idea to wrap a good wad of Duct tape around the other end of the bar - it sticks out right above the injection pump, and it would be easy to catch your eye or something on it Richard W