Hi Chaps
Went back out to the Xantia today after parking it up half an hour earlier and it was completely dead when I turned the key. Car is a '99 V reg 2.0 16v Exclusive Auto. The remote unlocked the doors ok and the interior and exterior lights work ok, so there's power from the battery. Seem to remember someone else had a problem like this some time ago and it was a break in the loom under the bonnet? Seems strange if this is the same though as it was driving fine up to half an hour before.
Could it be water messing up the electrics? Passenger footwell is wet as the recent deluges have found the weak spot in the windscreen trim, could this have shorted the immobiliser? Also, thinking about it, the alarm has gone off a couple of times on it's own over the past month, a prelude to dead electrics???
Any suggestions gratefully received before I have to start tracing and testing all the wiring ....
Dead Xantia
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CitroJim
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Yes, a bell rings on this problem.
The one I'm thinking of is the cable that runs in the loom under the radiator across the front of the car. If I recall, it carries the main supply to the ignition switch. It gets wet and corrodes.
Wet footwells will cause all sorts of electrical grief. The passenger footwell has some major multiway connectors and the alarm ECU therein. If you can feel the passenger footwell damp than underneath it you'll likely have an inch of water. An urgent carpet out job I'm afraid. Not too difficult, remove the seat and the centre console followed by the handbrake lever (as you need to slip off the handbrake cable) and the passenger carpet will lift out, leaving the rear and driver footwell carpet behind. If the passenger footwell is really wet, the rear footwells will be wet too.
Both my Xantias have suffered this.
The one I'm thinking of is the cable that runs in the loom under the radiator across the front of the car. If I recall, it carries the main supply to the ignition switch. It gets wet and corrodes.
Wet footwells will cause all sorts of electrical grief. The passenger footwell has some major multiway connectors and the alarm ECU therein. If you can feel the passenger footwell damp than underneath it you'll likely have an inch of water. An urgent carpet out job I'm afraid. Not too difficult, remove the seat and the centre console followed by the handbrake lever (as you need to slip off the handbrake cable) and the passenger carpet will lift out, leaving the rear and driver footwell carpet behind. If the passenger footwell is really wet, the rear footwells will be wet too.
Both my Xantias have suffered this.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
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steelcityuk
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First check : remove battery poleclamps, clean/rub battery poles, and clamps with emery paper.
Refit - and THEN you lube with any water protective agent - not before fitting the clamps !
Its not really a test that the headlamps are working. The starter motor consumes approx 50x the headlamps current
Next check : the spade terminal on the starter coil.
Ensure the lever is in neutral, handbrakes on. Now using a piece of heavy gauge wire, connect the starter coil spade terminal briefly to the battery plus pole. If the starter springs to life - you have a problem in the wriing from ignition key switch out to the starter coil spade terminal (Jim's description). Even the ignition switch itself (not uncommon
).
Refit - and THEN you lube with any water protective agent - not before fitting the clamps !
Its not really a test that the headlamps are working. The starter motor consumes approx 50x the headlamps current
Next check : the spade terminal on the starter coil.
Ensure the lever is in neutral, handbrakes on. Now using a piece of heavy gauge wire, connect the starter coil spade terminal briefly to the battery plus pole. If the starter springs to life - you have a problem in the wriing from ignition key switch out to the starter coil spade terminal (Jim's description). Even the ignition switch itself (not uncommon
).Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Stupid observation I know; you have double/treble checked the gear selector
is in Park cleanly/correctly!?
Is there ANY starter energisation at all?
My 16v 2.0i that had EXACTLY the same problem; it turned out to be a fritzed
out wire between the 'consumer unit' behind the battery and the main
bulkhead conduit into the driver's side bulkhead. I personally believe water
ingress knackered my car up as it was working fine before being left parked
for a few very wet weeks and never fancied starting again without extra help.
Fix was a piggybacked wire between the large fused feed off the battery
to the scuttle area beneath the windscreen - though dont crack the
windscreen trying to remove the mastic applied trim in able to gain access!!
I traced what I could see off the wiring off the battery area and it actually
seemed to run via the fan panel loom and out beside the the ECU box into
the middle front wing along and up into the engine bay area again to the
main bulkhead.
Andrew
is in Park cleanly/correctly!?
Is there ANY starter energisation at all?
My 16v 2.0i that had EXACTLY the same problem; it turned out to be a fritzed
out wire between the 'consumer unit' behind the battery and the main
bulkhead conduit into the driver's side bulkhead. I personally believe water
ingress knackered my car up as it was working fine before being left parked
for a few very wet weeks and never fancied starting again without extra help.
Fix was a piggybacked wire between the large fused feed off the battery
to the scuttle area beneath the windscreen - though dont crack the
windscreen trying to remove the mastic applied trim in able to gain access!!
I traced what I could see off the wiring off the battery area and it actually
seemed to run via the fan panel loom and out beside the the ECU box into
the middle front wing along and up into the engine bay area again to the
main bulkhead.
Andrew
Sorry for taking time to report back, work pressures and incessant rain have meant I've only been able to grab a few minutes here and there to look at the problem.
Right - update
Tested battery and starter motor as Anders suggested, both are ok.
Andrew, checking the gear selector is in Park is not a stupid question, I've jumped out of the car may times leaving the car in Drive and then wondered why it wouldn't start when I got back in and turned the ignition. However on this occasion the gear selector is most definitely in Park, in fact it has given me a further problem that I can't even push the car under shelter to work on it as I can't take it out of Park without the ignition being on!
Headlamps which were working when this originally happened now no longer work, although everything else does (central locking, interior light, radio etc). I can also hear a faint click from behind the dash (solenoid?) when I turn the ignition key, although the dash itself is dead with no warning lights (other than hazards which still work) showing.
Haven't had chance to strip out the carpets yet so the passenger footwell is still wet, so the problem could still possibly be connected to wet electrics under the passenger seat. Have removed the plastic trim under the windscreen so that I can re-seal it, the wipers were a pig to get off the splines and then I found that some numpty from the car's previous life had attempted to use putty to seal the trim! Needless to say it didn't work and I've also cleaned out a mass of rotting vegetation blocking up the drain holes underneath. I'll try some silicone sealant when I put it back on.
My gut feeling is that it is the same problem that you had Andrew. Can you be more specific as to the position of the wire you spliced in to? I've checked the scuttle area under the windscreen after removing the plastic trim, I have a small bunch of wires going from the passenger side (with a split off to a connector behind the wiper motor) across the scuttle and disappearing into the car just under the windscreen in the driver's side top corner of the scuttle. Is this where you have piggybacked into?
I've checked the wires inside the split covering here, according to the wiring diagram in Haynes the wire from the main fuse to the ignition should be black but I can't see a black wire anywhere. There's a bunch of grey wires in there plus some green & yellow, but no black. What colour wire did you connect to and where exactly was it? A picture would be great if you could manage it.
Thanks for the replies again, guys.
Brian
Right - update
Tested battery and starter motor as Anders suggested, both are ok.
Andrew, checking the gear selector is in Park is not a stupid question, I've jumped out of the car may times leaving the car in Drive and then wondered why it wouldn't start when I got back in and turned the ignition. However on this occasion the gear selector is most definitely in Park, in fact it has given me a further problem that I can't even push the car under shelter to work on it as I can't take it out of Park without the ignition being on!
Headlamps which were working when this originally happened now no longer work, although everything else does (central locking, interior light, radio etc). I can also hear a faint click from behind the dash (solenoid?) when I turn the ignition key, although the dash itself is dead with no warning lights (other than hazards which still work) showing.
Haven't had chance to strip out the carpets yet so the passenger footwell is still wet, so the problem could still possibly be connected to wet electrics under the passenger seat. Have removed the plastic trim under the windscreen so that I can re-seal it, the wipers were a pig to get off the splines and then I found that some numpty from the car's previous life had attempted to use putty to seal the trim! Needless to say it didn't work and I've also cleaned out a mass of rotting vegetation blocking up the drain holes underneath. I'll try some silicone sealant when I put it back on.
My gut feeling is that it is the same problem that you had Andrew. Can you be more specific as to the position of the wire you spliced in to? I've checked the scuttle area under the windscreen after removing the plastic trim, I have a small bunch of wires going from the passenger side (with a split off to a connector behind the wiper motor) across the scuttle and disappearing into the car just under the windscreen in the driver's side top corner of the scuttle. Is this where you have piggybacked into?
I've checked the wires inside the split covering here, according to the wiring diagram in Haynes the wire from the main fuse to the ignition should be black but I can't see a black wire anywhere. There's a bunch of grey wires in there plus some green & yellow, but no black. What colour wire did you connect to and where exactly was it? A picture would be great if you could manage it.
Thanks for the replies again, guys.
Brian
Headlights are now mysteriously working again, as is the buzzer which alerted me to the fact that they were on.
Have double checked that it is not just the battery by connecting jump leads from another car, but still no ignition lights and nothing happening when the key is turned.
Citroen electrics, don't you just love them .....
Have double checked that it is not just the battery by connecting jump leads from another car, but still no ignition lights and nothing happening when the key is turned.
Citroen electrics, don't you just love them .....
Sounds like a good weekends entertainment messing around with cable harnesses in your Xan ... 
If any comfort, it is in fact quite common with this sort of problem in ANY make of car that has lost its showroom shine. Salty winter roads mist does its magic over the years.
You may think so, but its defo not Citroens in particular
If any comfort, it is in fact quite common with this sort of problem in ANY make of car that has lost its showroom shine. Salty winter roads mist does its magic over the years.
You may think so, but its defo not Citroens in particular
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
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CitroJim
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Brian,
My next check would be to remove the panel below the drivers side dash and see if any voltage is reaching the ignition switch. You'll see three extremely large two-pole connectors connecting the switch to the loom and on these you should see battery voltage. A test lamp will do fine.
Do you have a set of wiring diagrams as these are going to be essential to nail this one down.
My next check would be to remove the panel below the drivers side dash and see if any voltage is reaching the ignition switch. You'll see three extremely large two-pole connectors connecting the switch to the loom and on these you should see battery voltage. A test lamp will do fine.
Do you have a set of wiring diagrams as these are going to be essential to nail this one down.
Jim
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Runner, cyclist, time triallist, duathlete, Citroen AX fan and the CCC Citroenian 'From A to Z' Columnist...
Thanks for the suggestion Jim, I'll try that next. I've got a test lamp and a meter so it shouldn't be too difficult to check. Presumably if I get battery voltage here, the inference is that the ignition switch is faulty?
The wiring diagrams I'm using are those in the Haynes manual, although I don't trust them to be right as I've suffered the pains of Haynes' innaccuracy plenty of times before.
The wiring diagrams I'm using are those in the Haynes manual, although I don't trust them to be right as I've suffered the pains of Haynes' innaccuracy plenty of times before.
Hi Brain.
Apologies for not getting a reply back sooner - since I last posted here
my broadband modem or the pc's usb's have decided not to talk to one
another, so I've stepped into work to get my fix of the internet
- ebay/forums etc before I have to endure cold turkey again!!
The 'consumer unit' as I call it is the main live power feed splitter that
runs off the main positive on the battery through a set of chunky 30, 40
and 80 amp fuses under a plastic lid (along with the underbonnet fuses
and a smattering of relays). They run from there down onto the lower
cross-member behind the bumper and along to the drivers side where
they cut up between the inner/outer wings and reappear just in the scuttle
area on the bulkhead onto a huge port of about 50 odd wires on the
mother of all multi plugs! This wont be seen easily as it lives under the
scuttle main trim and a splash trim that is a bit of a git to remove without
splitting it in two!
I spliced into a heavy grey feed wire here (there's a couple the same)
where they should be live - it's corresponding end pops up just beside the
top nearside edge of the radiator beside the battery. I used a needle
probe light that illuminates when it finds a current.
If you see fit to actually remove the multiplug off the bulkhead to take a
reading from it, the fancy yellow locking plug contraption doesn't really
do a great deal to unlock the plug. There are actually 2/3 very deep
allan key bolts that connect it to the corresponding half behind the dash.
Believe me, this is hard fought/won information as I spent two days
larruping seven bells out of the lot on a car I was scrapping and I just
couldn't remove it from either side!!
The Haynes does a half passable job of showing the correct circuits which
are lifted straight out of Citroen's manual. What you'll also need is a map
of the consumer unit's wiring to completely make sense of it all - I'll see
about taking a digital camera pic of my Revue Technique french manual
which shows this where suddenly things will then start to make sense.
I'd say the wire I personally have a problem with is one that shares the
feeds to the fans and isn't on the main crossmemeber although other
guys here have had issues with this loom. In truth it's never been
conclusively proven as I just lived with the piggybacked wire after
cutting the ends of the suspect wire out of the loop.
Andrew
Apologies for not getting a reply back sooner - since I last posted here
my broadband modem or the pc's usb's have decided not to talk to one
another, so I've stepped into work to get my fix of the internet
- ebay/forums etc before I have to endure cold turkey again!!
The 'consumer unit' as I call it is the main live power feed splitter that
runs off the main positive on the battery through a set of chunky 30, 40
and 80 amp fuses under a plastic lid (along with the underbonnet fuses
and a smattering of relays). They run from there down onto the lower
cross-member behind the bumper and along to the drivers side where
they cut up between the inner/outer wings and reappear just in the scuttle
area on the bulkhead onto a huge port of about 50 odd wires on the
mother of all multi plugs! This wont be seen easily as it lives under the
scuttle main trim and a splash trim that is a bit of a git to remove without
splitting it in two!
I spliced into a heavy grey feed wire here (there's a couple the same)
where they should be live - it's corresponding end pops up just beside the
top nearside edge of the radiator beside the battery. I used a needle
probe light that illuminates when it finds a current.
If you see fit to actually remove the multiplug off the bulkhead to take a
reading from it, the fancy yellow locking plug contraption doesn't really
do a great deal to unlock the plug. There are actually 2/3 very deep
allan key bolts that connect it to the corresponding half behind the dash.
Believe me, this is hard fought/won information as I spent two days
larruping seven bells out of the lot on a car I was scrapping and I just
couldn't remove it from either side!!
The Haynes does a half passable job of showing the correct circuits which
are lifted straight out of Citroen's manual. What you'll also need is a map
of the consumer unit's wiring to completely make sense of it all - I'll see
about taking a digital camera pic of my Revue Technique french manual
which shows this where suddenly things will then start to make sense.
I'd say the wire I personally have a problem with is one that shares the
feeds to the fans and isn't on the main crossmemeber although other
guys here have had issues with this loom. In truth it's never been
conclusively proven as I just lived with the piggybacked wire after
cutting the ends of the suspect wire out of the loop.
Andrew
I've just put a meter across the 3 two-pole connectors as you suggested Jim. The brown connector is showing just over 12 volts, the black one just 0.25 volts and the grey one nothing. I guess it's pointing to a breakdown in the wiring somewhere between the battery and the ignition switch as Andrew suggested. Now the problem is trying to trace it......citrojim wrote: My next check would be to remove the panel below the drivers side dash and see if any voltage is reaching the ignition switch. You'll see three extremely large two-pole connectors connecting the switch to the loom and on these you should see battery voltage. A test lamp will do fine.
andmcit wrote: They run from there down onto the lower
cross-member behind the bumper and along to the drivers side where
they cut up between the inner/outer wings and reappear just in the scuttle
area on the bulkhead onto a huge port of about 50 odd wires on the
mother of all multi plugs! This wont be seen easily as it lives under the
scuttle main trim and a splash trim that is a bit of a git to remove without
splitting it in two!
I spliced into a heavy grey feed wire here (there's a couple the same)
where they should be live - it's corresponding end pops up just beside the
top nearside edge of the radiator beside the battery. I used a needle
probe light that illuminates when it finds a current.
Andrew
Managed to get the splash trim out from under the main scuttle trim - you've guessed it, it was a pig to get out and it split in two - and can now see a forrest of wires disappearing into the bulkhead. I think your description of 'the mother of all multiplugs' is underestimating it!
Next problem is that although I can see plenty of grey wires, none of them are heavy guage.
I can see 3 white heavy guage wires and have checked these for continuity by removing some of the insulation and connecting a meter (switched to continuity) between this point and the feed from the battery. 2 of these check ok for continuity with the meter bleeping merrily away, the other shows no continuity. When I set the meter to show voltage and put one probe on the exposed wire and the other to earth, the 2 that show continuity each show 12.4v. However the one showing no continuity then shows 7v. How can it be powered up if it's showing no continuity? Unless the ignition end is live? I suppose I need to break the wire to check it properly?
I'm only guessing that these are the feed wires I should be checking, I'm assuming the offending wire will be heavy guage and these are the heaviest guage in there. There are a couple of thick brown wires in there (maybe 3) of slightly thinner guage, which I'll be checking next.
Any comments gratefully received!
