Me again, an another problem, (front end rattle)

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 28 Apr 2007, 19:20

I have a rattling noise coming from the front end on the drivers side of the car, at first i thought it might be my front brake pads as me / citrojim and Xac had changed them recently. but after getting me head down there to have a listen.

It appears its coming from something attached to or around the alternator belt?

The car starts OK, and runs fine, the rattling happens in any gear, and is more noticeable with the car idling. i had a look under the car and the belt seems to be waggling about as it rotates on the tensionsers. right at the bottom of the car.

The sound is metallic in nature, sounds like a metal washer sitting on top of a washing machine on full spin.

any ideas?

Post by **CitroJim** » 28 Apr 2007, 19:43

Hi Ian,

Good to see you here again!

I'm guessing one of your auxillary belt tensioners is getting a little worn. Have the belt off and give them a check. Spin them in turn and listen for rough running and check for play. They should spin silently with no detectable play.

The other possibility is your crankshaft pulley could be starting to break up. It is a two-part pulley with rubber between the inner and outer. This fails and in the end the outer part of the pulley will separate from the inner part with nasty consequences.

The noise could be coming from the cambelt tensioners. Again, nasty consequences

You can run the engine with the auxillary belt off to rule out cambelt problems but not for too long though as you will have no charge or hydraulic pressure. This test will rule out the Alternator, Aircon compressor and hydraulic pump, any of which could be the cause as well.

Hope that helps a little Ian...

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 28 Apr 2007, 23:00

Well, found out what it is Jim,

There is a motor of some sort underneath the alternator, i think its got something to do with the power steering, or could be the Air-con, it was smoking like a Smoke grenade,

Well looked like it was coming from the bearing housing on the center of the belt wheel,

I took a video but its not to clear, so no point in uploading it. but basically if you look strait down the side where the belt is on the alternator, its the very last motor directly underneath it. if anyone has a diagram of a 1.9TD engine id be able to point it out. either way, looks like i'm looking at a new one.

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 29 Apr 2007, 00:09

If your set up is like my 1.9TD Ian, the hydrolic pump is at the top, then the altenator, then the one at the bottom is the aircon pump, which we noticed was low on gas like my 2.1TD is.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 29 Apr 2007, 00:56

well if that's the case, then the wheel the belt sits on, was smoking that bad, i had to get a glass of water to cool it down, before it set fire...

Wasn't good, the smokes coming from the bearings on the wheel, i think?

Post by **CitroJim** » 29 Apr 2007, 06:31

Yep, that is the aircon compressor for sure...

Does it make a difference if the aircon is on or off as the compressor drive itself is controlled by an electrically operated clutch. If you look between the drive pulley and compressor body, you'll see two thickish wires. These go to the clutch between the pulley and compressor proper. Pulling the plug on the back of the compressor will stop the clutch engaging and hopefully stop all this noise and smoke.

When the clutch is disengaged, the pulley should run very easily.

If something down there has been smoking it's bad news. It sounds like the compressor is seizing. Either was, a replacement compressor is likely to be needed and the job will need the attention of a specialist.

Ian, before condemming the compressor or clutch, the smoke could just have been the belt struggling against the load due to bad tensioners or just a worn-out belt. They will slip, get hot and smoke like this. The aircon compressor takes a very high load and the belt has to be tight and in tip-top condition.

Has the aircon worked OK recently or has it always been a bit suspect?

Being low on gas will (or should) not cause compressor damage as the clutch is operated by an ECU which will not allow it to engage unless the cooling fans are running and the gas pressures in the aircon are neither too low or high. There is a high/low pressure switch at the top of the receiver/drier (canister to left of engine bay with the sight-glass) to monitor pressures and shut down the compressor if they're wrong.

Unfortunately, these can be bypassed

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 29 Apr 2007, 11:10

aircon was working fine, it smoked when the aircon was off, the smoke is definitely coming from the wheel / pulley part of the motor and not the motor its self well, at least that's were its coming out of.

Its got a very distinct odor about it. smells like burning metal, so i have a feeling its one of the bearings inside the pulley.

I think, i'm going to have to sell the car, its getting way to expensive, and there is no way i can afford to get this motor fixed in-time for the MOT, it wouldnt of been so much of a problem had it not been for my tax running out in the same month the MOT does

Unless i can manage to pull in more work some how?

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 29 Apr 2007, 12:16

Anyone know if it's possible to fit the non-a/c aux drive belt and not loop it round the a/c pulley?

Post by **CitroJim** » 29 Apr 2007, 20:10

Xac wrote:Anyone know if it's possible to fit the non-a/c aux drive belt and not loop it round the a/c pulley?

I don't think so, non A/C cars have the hydraulic pump in the place occupied by the A/C compressor. The only way to take the compressor out of use would be to remove* it and rig up some kind of idler in its place.

* Be very careful removing a compressor. Ideally, the aircon system should be depressurised and emptied using the right gear. Escaping R134A gas can cause severe frostbite and, I believe, oxygen starvation. Otherwise it is non-toxic but having it done properly is by far the best way.

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 30 Apr 2007, 08:49

So, basically I'm screwed!

Well, if anyone wants the car, make me an offer. its taxed and moted till end of may so can be driven away, if you don't mind the Air-con thing smoking a bit...

Its needs a new passenger side ABS sensor fitted, and possibly new spheres as the ones on it are 4 years old, yet it is still a comfortable ride. its got acid damage to the rear seats, and a ware mark on the passenger....

Oh forget it, no one will buy it, as there isn't really that much good with the car. well, unless someone needs a 1.9TD engine and gear box.

*edit*

It does have new brake disks and pads on the fronts, they have only been on the car about 3 weeks now, also a newish back box for the exhaust. new throttle cable. doors are all in reasonable condition. working front fog-lights lights. new battery only 1 week old.

Post by **RichardW** » 30 Apr 2007, 10:31

This will be the bearing in the A/C clutch breaking up - it happened on my mate's car. It is possible to put on a shorter belt that will bypass the A/C pulley (my mate ran his like this for a while till he got a new compressor), but I don't know what route was used, nor what length belt - although his was a 93 car, and had IIRC an extra idler wheel at the bottom between the A/C comp and crank pulley.

Fixing this one is probably going to cost less than buying an unknown car with a decent MOT....

Post by **CitroJim** » 30 Apr 2007, 11:13

RichardW wrote:Fixing this one is probably going to cost less than buying an unknown car with a decent MOT....

Soundly agreed!!!

A known quantity as against a totally unknown one

TehAgent · Post by **TehAgent** » 30 Apr 2007, 11:35

Its not the problem that's the problem

, if you get my meaning, its the time i have left Vs funds, that's the problem,

I'm sure its not going to pass its MOT, when smoke and a strange burning smell, is coming from under the bonnet

is there anyway of just replacing the bearing? as the pulley has what looks like a nut in the center of it? surely this would be a lot cheaper and a easier solution?

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 30 Apr 2007, 11:51

If the a/c can be bypassed with a shorter belt, then it should pass the MoT like that as I'm pretty sure working a/c isn't on the test

Post by **CitroJim** » 30 Apr 2007, 12:28

Xac wrote:If the a/c can be bypassed with a shorter belt, then it should pass the MoT like that as I'm pretty sure working a/c isn't on the test

Xac,

We can have a look this evening at how possible/feasable it will be to bypass the A/C pulley when we put the belt back on your 1.9. I've got a spare belt for a non-A/C 1.9 kicking around in my stock so I can bring it over and give it a try.

As far as I can recall, your 1.9 and Ian's are just about identical so if it works on yours, it'll work on yours Ian