auto box reliability

xantia93eko · Post by **xantia93eko** » 11 Apr 2007, 10:14

hi does anyone know of any problems with xantia auto gearboxes i have been toying with the idea of buying an auto but have heard they are not to reliable would appreciate some of your experiences

slim123 · Post by **slim123** » 11 Apr 2007, 11:40

All auto boxes have the reputation of being unreliable, this is normally due to the fact that owners and garages seem to think that thet are maintenance free!!

If you change the oil regular you shouldn't get to much trouble. I allways change the auto gear oil at every 12000 miles.

Keeping the oil clean should keep you trouble free, lets face it, who wants a clutch any how.

Regards
Slim.

jgra1 · Post by **jgra1** » 11 Apr 2007, 12:34

Slim, would it be a pain to outline the steps for an oil change?
I have a V6 Xantia M2 and no manual (no pun

)

.. kinda feel its due now. 80K miles..

along with the 2 meter cambelt :O !

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 11 Apr 2007, 12:51

The Xantia auto's are pretty reliable - provided their oil is kept clean and changed regularly WITH THE RIGHT TYPE OF OIL. Check the colour of the oil from the gearbox dipstick before buying the car - if its a rosy red colour, good, if it looks like dirty old engine oil, keep walking!

Because you can only change about 2.5 litres of the 6.5 litres contained in the gearbox in each change, it takes a LONG time to flush out dirty old oil... the oil in mine was dark brown when I got it (unfortunately I knew nothing about automatic's at the time, it being my first one, so didn't know what to watch out for, or even what colour the oil was meant to be) and I've done about 5 changes now over a period of 6 months to try and flush it, and its only just starting to look a dirty red colour now, instead of dirty brown. Bright rosey red is still some distance away.

Having said that the car has now done 160,000Km (100,000 Miles) with no problems with the Auto whatsoever.

Also note that only the Mk1 two litre automatic's have gearbox oil that can be easily changed. (And take standard Dexron II types such as Castrol Transmax M - Note, MUST NOT, REPEAT NOT put any kind of Dexron III spec oil in them, it will ruin the clutch packs in no time)

The Mk2 two litre Xantia's have a different auto box altogether with special (synthetic?) oil and are supposedly "sealed for life" so they don't have oil changes on their maintainance schedule, nor is it easy to find out what kind of oil it actually is, or drain it out and refill it. It can be done however.

The V6 autobox is a different beast again and I suspect its also a so called "sealed for life" box with hard to identify oil.

Regards,
Simon

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 11 Apr 2007, 13:55

There's a manual for a 4HP20 as fitted to some Xantias for download here:

http://citroeny.cz/servis/servis.htm

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 11 Apr 2007, 16:49

I would like to set off a discussion on the "fact" that its only possible to drain off 2.5 Liter from the autobox ?
What I've seen on PRnet exploded views depicts an oil sump which is not too hard to remove. And the sump gasket is available at your dealer (or ZF national agents) at very reasonable costs.

Or is it my memory cheating from the 4HP14 type fitted to BX'es ?

Please guys - all your wits here in written words.

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 11 Apr 2007, 18:31

Mandrake wrote:if its a rosy red colour, good

The colour of new fluid for the HP20 AL4 is actually a light gold colour, similar to new engine oil.

As far as changing the oil on the HP 20 AL4 box, there is a drain plug on the bottom of the box.

When it comes to refilling there are two methods, which depends on the date of manufacture. Early versions have a dipstick (found under the air filter) which is used to refill the box via a length of tube relatively easily. The level is then checked by getting the box up to working temperature, placing the selection lever in park with the engine running then checking the level.

However on later versions the dipstick was apparently deleted in favour of a refill plug on the back of the box which requires the fluid to be at the level of the plug. Quite how you would gain access to the refill plug however may be another matter

luckily mine has the dipstick

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 11 Apr 2007, 18:31

Removing the sump is a fastidious, risky and dirty job compared to removing the two plugs.
Only about 2½ litres come out, and the lot can be replaced by doing it in three instalments over days or weeks.
Open plugs should be the same as the sump out, since it’s opened at the bottom ?

AndersDK wrote:I'm in my third week off duty now because of my back giving problems

A late catch-up here, but how have you been since ?

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 11 Apr 2007, 20:51

DickieG wrote:
Mandrake wrote:if its a rosy red colour, good
The colour of new fluid for the HP20 AL4 is actually a light gold colour, similar to new engine oil.

Yeah,

I was refering to the 4HP14 as used on Mk1 Xantia's - the AL4 does use different oil, as I mentioned....(I wasn't sure what colour it was though, thanks)

I didn't mention checking the colour of the oil in the later ones as the info I had said they didn't have a dipstick at all, just a filler plug like a manual gearbox. (Looks like that was partly right)

So what kind of oil is it then, or do you just buy the magic ingredient from a Citroen dealer ?

Regards,
Simon

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 11 Apr 2007, 20:56

AndersDK wrote:I would like to set off a discussion on the "fact" that its only possible to drain off 2.5 Liter from the autobox ?
What I've seen on PRnet exploded views depicts an oil sump which is not too hard to remove. And the sump gasket is available at your dealer (or ZF national agents) at very reasonable costs.

Or is it my memory cheating from the 4HP14 type fitted to BX'es ?

Please guys - all your wits here in written words.

Hi Anders - in the 4HP14 it is possible to remove the sump although it is a tricky job with lots of small details to get wrong - for example nearly every bolt in the sump is a different length and MUST be replaced in the exact same location.

But this does not help for draining oil, because there is ALREADY a drain plug at the bottom of the sump, as well as one on the side of the torque convertor. The sump can already be completely drained, it's the torque convertor that holds the remaining 4 litres which won't drain out.

From what I've read this is the norm for most auto boxes and only a very few types can be completely drained without disassembly.

Regards,
Simon

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 11 Apr 2007, 21:04

Clogzz wrote:Only about 2½ litres come out, and the lot can be replaced by doing it in three instalments over days or weeks.

If only that were true...

The problem is you have 6.5 litres of oil, you drain 2.5 litres out and replace it, and then you have to drive the car for a while, and that causes the two lots of oil to mix. Then you do it again, and so on... each time you are only _diluting_ the old oil with new oil, never replacing it.

Assuming proper mixing of the two lots of oil each time with sufficient driving in between each change, you could work out mathematically what percentage of the original oil is still there after a certain number of changes - and believe me, its not a pretty figure.

Edit: I calculate after 3 changes there is still 23% of the original oil still there, which if it is dirty or the wrong type of oil is still plenty to contaminate it. After 5 changes its down to 8%.

I've done 5 changes on mine now of 2.5 litres each and it's still nowhere near the colour of the oil that's going in. It wasn't until the 4th change that the oil in the dipstick has started to take on a red colour at all.

This is why its SO important to change the oil regularly in the first place and put the right stuff in - once its been left to get really dirty or its been filled with the wrong stuff, it really is hard to get it completely flushed without an excessive number of changes.

Open plugs should be the same as the sump out, since it’s opened at the bottom ?

I would have thought so... see my other post.

Regards,
Simon

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 11 Apr 2007, 21:45

Clogzz wrote:
AndersDK wrote:I'm in my third week off duty now because of my back giving problems
A late catch-up here, but how have you been since ?

Thanks Clogzz - I'm surviving ! I have recovered now and will try this monday starting on my job again

This is highly off topic - more a/b discussions please

I'll throw in this :
My local garage cranks the power unit, and presumeably let the a/b & t/c pump out completetely, when changing the a/b oil. Donno the details on this, but apparently they do not understand the 2.5L out and diluting process.
And yes - they are in fact very well aware on what type oil to throw in.
(Autoboxes are dear here in DK

)

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 11 Apr 2007, 21:59

I bought into this debate a couple of years ago; see here:

http://www.frenchcarforum.co.uk/forum/v ... hp?t=14841

when I was given the job of servicing a friends car (an auto BX TZi) that I had organised for her to buy a couple of years earlier.
Since this time, there seems to have been an "enlightening" worldwide to the dramas caused by the urban myth that "Dex3 is an upgrade of Dex2" with a couple of oil companies quietly altering their websites and manufacturers who had previously lumped all ATFs into one basket suddenly taking a different approach.
According to a guy I know who is a service manager of an Independent Prestige Car repairer, there are two factors worth noting. One is that the same ZF autos were used in Saabs, Beemers and Mercs and these have a reputation of often covering 400 - 600,000 klms with little more than annoying oil drips through natural age and wear, but apart from that, no major problems.
When asked why this is so, the response is that "we use the recommended fluid in ours so don't have the problems these guys servicing Peugeots and Citroens have that insist on using Dexron 111" I have found even on UK forums, that when I find someone with a failed auto on a BX or Xantia, every time it was changed to D3 at around 40/50,000 miles and often failed within the next 30,000. Whilst others who never changed the ATF got 200,000+ miles before it started to get rough and then when changed in most cases it smoothed out providing the D2 was used.

As regards the amount of oil that can come out ata time; I find 2.5 is the norm, but if spun on the starter another .5 - 1 litre can be squeezed out, however, the pros working on these all the time it seems have a pump and can suck almost all of it out.

Alan S

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 11 Apr 2007, 22:13

AlanS submitted a great explanation in that link on how important it is to replace the oil - and using the correct fluid on replacement.

But this discussion is slightly different : more on the practical approach on which methods replacing the oil.
This is because we lack some good and tried methods, that would narrow in the job to be almost similar to engines and manual boxes.

If someone suddenly throws in an easier method than the 2.5L out and diluting method, then DIY'ers would not be afraid of the job, and the oil would be replaced timely. To the benefit of owners and future s/h buyers.

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 11 Apr 2007, 22:47

As regards the amount of oil that can come out at a time; I find 2.5 is the norm, but if spun on the starter another .5 - 1 litre can be squeezed out, however, the pros working on these all the time it seems have a pump and can suck almost all of it out.

It seems that this can be bought fairly easily, but as regards using it, they suggest it works in 2 stages. Firstly it will remove just over the 2.5 litres spoken about, but the second stage requires it to somehow accessing the torque converter and whilst it may take a while to do, is apparently much less than would be required to remove the box from the car.
This same pump I believe some Citroen garages also use to suck the LHM out of the tanks on Xantias so they don't have to remove the tank to do it.

Alan S