Xan 1.9 TD starting woes

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 08 Jan 2003, 01:26

The glow plugs are nearly new, tested ok & stay on for about 20 secs ie 10 secs after the light goes out. I have replaced all the leak off pipes & put new hose clips on all the fuel pipes under the bonnet. It still takes at LEAST 20 secs of churning before it fires with a puff of white smoke if its been standing for 6+ hours. if you only run it for a few secs & then leave for an hour or two it will fire up quickly even though it must be stone cold. It must be an air leak but how can I isolate where the leak is? I can't afford to keep changing bits untill I happen upon the culprit. is it ok to bypass the filter to rule it out or is this asking for trouble? can i use any suitable fuel pipe or are the citroen pipes special & if so are they easy to fit ( most jobs seem to be unduly difficult on these things). My wife just wants shot of it but I feel theres a good car struggling to get out so please help or its back to F**D or Va***all.

mbunting · Post by **mbunting** » 08 Jan 2003, 01:33

A friend has a F**D Onion diesel, and had a similar problem over the last few weeks. We replaced the fuel feed pipe which was obviously leaking air ( don't ask ! ), which made things better.
However, he would get problems starting early morning and late evening when he returned to the car, but not if the car was warm.
We found that an earthing point was slightly corroded ( saw a spark in the dark ), and cleaned this up. It turned out to be the earth for the starter motor, and he's not had a problem since.
I'm not saying this is the cure for the XUD, but worth bearing in mind.
Mat.

frankie · Post by **frankie** » 08 Jan 2003, 01:41

Could it be the rubber fuel pipes splitting? There is a 180 degree bend at the back of the lump where they come up from underneath the car and are clipped onto the bulkhead. They always split here and this can cause the symptoms described. The leak is quite subtle as it dribbles onto the undershield and goes unnoticed.
citron xantia td '95

Dave Burns · Post by **Dave Burns** » 08 Jan 2003, 02:05

Pete, pump the hand primer until it gets difficult to squeeze, then attempt to start, if it starts quickly then its deffinatley getting air in somewhere, you say the return pipes have been replaced, did you examine the blanking cap on the flywheel end injector, they crack and let air in just as the pipes do.
If it still doesn't start easey after priming then at least you will know it has definately got preheat problems, if that turns out to be the case, then cure that before looking for air leaks.
Stick with it because when its ok it will start that easey it will make other diesels and alot of petrols, especially F**d's look silly, even when its well below freezing.
My 19td with just over 100,000 miles on it starts first touch every morning, even with thick overnight frost on it.
What make and model of glowplugs are in it.
Dave

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 08 Jan 2003, 15:48

Dave
The glow plugs are NGK not sure what model they are. they glowed orange at the tip after about 3 secs when i tested them & a test bulb stayed lit for about 20 secs when i connected it. if it was a pre heat fault would you not expect huge clouds of smoke from the exhaust caused by the unburnt diesel generated by the injectors during the prolonged starting? I only get a brief puff. last night for instance after sitting in -4 temp for 4 1/2 hours it fired up in a couple of secs. It must have been sone cold dont you think?

David W · Post by **David W** » 08 Jan 2003, 16:02

Pete,
If you haven't already checked look at those rubber diesel pipes Frankie mentions to the rear of the engine. The Citroen dealers here are supplying loads at the moment. They often split on the inside of the pre-formed bends and the problem can be intermittant as they only leak/draw in air when the split opens and closes with engine movement.
As Frankie says the diesel tends to soak in the undertray mixed with oil and isn't easy to spot.
In fact it is almost impossible to check them as the part you see will look perfect and you have to remove them to see the failure spot. I'd change them anyway to be sure.
David

Post by **Jon** » 08 Jan 2003, 17:00

I agree those diesel return pipes at the bulkhead are a known Xantia problem.
Citroen ref is 1573Y3 and we also sell them here at Andyspares under our ref N18602. They have proved to be a good seller.
Lastly, and in my experience only Bosch or Beru glow plugs are any use at all in this engine, though others may beg to differ.
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 08 Jan 2003, 17:20

Thanks for all the help. I'll try the return pipe & let you know. Are they easy to get to & fit or a nightmare. any tips?

David W · Post by **David W** » 08 Jan 2003, 17:33

Pete,
They aren't exactly a high tech job but can be fiddly. Worse if your engine is very oily/dirty down the back. The worse bit I reckon is joining to the existing pipes that come from the tank. On the ones I've done these pipes look like metal but are actually hard plastic. Pull them about too much and they will kink or break.
Ideally do this on a lift with the drivers front wheel off and the car on high.
Of course take all the normal precautions of working with axle stands/supports.
Really must get on with some work now!
David

Dave Burns · Post by **Dave Burns** » 09 Jan 2003, 04:19

Hi Pete, no I wouldn't necessarily expect much smoke from a diesel engine that had been cranked for 20 seconds even if it is getting fuel, you spoke of a puff of white smoke in your original post so there was unburnt fuel there.
I'm not saying your starting problem is one thing or the other, merely suggesting possible causes and ways to identify them, allthough I don't think a small air leak at the back of the engine would cause it not to start after only six hours, more likely in my experience to be closer to the pump on that time scale.
As for the NGK plugs, Iv'e got four here that I have just this weekend removed from the brother in laws 98 1.9 td Xantia, to be fair though they didn't prevent the engine starting, but it ran very lumpy on them for the the first fifteen seconds or so, but with this cold snap it was getting much longer and alot rougher running and this engine has only 50000 miles on it.
However a high mileage engine that might be a bit down on compression or suffering from worn injectors or the timing out a bit may be more of a problem to start on these plugs.
The Beru plugs just fitted glow considerably brighter than the NGK's that came out, so its reasonable to assume the brighter Beru's will also be much hotter.
I changed them (didn't fit them) as a last resort after alot of messing about looking for the cause of the poor cold running, when I tested the NGK's and saw them glow I thought at that moment I was wasting my time yet again, but then I fired a Beru plug up and was a lot more optimistic at having found the possible cause because of its obviouse better performance.
The engine now starts like a dream, with no throttle applied and an instant smooth tick over, sounded bloody loveley, just like mine.
The plug model was NGK Y923 with a resistance of 1.3 ohm compared to 0.5 ohm on the Beru, resistance is probably not too significant but then they do give a totaly different performance, the reading from the Bosch plugs are about the same as Beru, Iv'e got two Bosch and two Beru in my car and they are no trouble.
Dave

pete woods · Post by **pete woods** » 10 Jan 2003, 00:43

Cheers Dave. Ive just been out to buy the fuel pipe so i'll fit that then try the glow plugs if i'm still having problems. On another issue andy spares only want £20 for new spheres while my local independant want £18 to recharge each old one. It looks like new is the way to go ( I assume they arrive fully charged or do they have to be filled on the car?) Is fitting them just a matter of lowering the suspension, unscrewing the old one & replacing it or is there more to it than that?