makes you wonder why we do it...
Moderator: RichardW
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tomsheppard
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makes you wonder why we do it...
At the time of writing, there are 320 postings for peugeot cars with a 3 to 1 advice ratio and 1420 for Citroens with a 4.5 to 1 advice ratio. This demonstrates two things: Citroen owners seem to be more helpful than Peugeot owners (Probably due to time on their hands because they cannot use their cars!) and Citroens have four times as many problems. So the received wisdom is true: Citroens are, alas, unreliable. I very much admire the ingeniuity of their design but the actual engineering is poor and they are damned difficult to work on. The variousm forums have not a single good word to say for the dealer network which may be another reason for the popularity of this informed and helpful site. The sort of faults that occur are not to be tolerated in today's cars. Regular water leaks, cooling system problems and a suspension system that still baffles many and fails to work properly even after nigh on half a century's volume production speaks volumes for the paucity of Quality control. Sophistication is ok, so long as the dratted thing works. If not it is just too clever for its own good.Once my Citroen is fixed, I think I'll be looking for a Peugeot estate to replace it with; it isn't that it is a bad car, just not "special" enough to be worth the aggravation. Add to that a company that just doesn't seem to care about its reputation and the poor old Cit has little chance except as the plaything of tolerant anoraks such as ourselves.
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Jon
Well Tom.
Some interesting points, I won't deal with them all, but comment as follows.
Citroen is by far the largest part of this forum, and has been since Jan 01 when it was launched. I am not convinced that this is becuase Cits are unreliable. Its more like the fact that we have a hard core membership who are very experienced in Citroens, and provide accurate answers quickly. So this forum became well known as a good place to get advice due to the quality of posts from contributors like Alan S, Dave B and JohnD, NiSk etc.Unfortunately, these stalwarts, myself included don't have a working knoweldge of Renault, although I am not convinced that Renaults are any more reliable. Theres just less posts and less answers.
Theres also the fact that Andyspares has been known in the Citroen world since about 1985.
I'd also comment that for many years, Citroens and Peugeots have shared the same engines, gearboxes as well as other major components in the braking and suspension area (BX, Xan and C5 excepted in the suspension area). Why should a 1.9TD Xantia be any less reliable mechanically than a 406 1.9TD which has the same engine and gearbox made in the same factory?
So, you sell your BX 1.9D and buy a 405 estate with exactly the same engine and gearbox. Chances are that it will too have cooling problems and one day may need a head gasket. Its the same engine.
Finally, what we're dealing with on this forum are not new cars, we are dealing with cars in the 3 to 15 years old bracket from what I see from the majority of posts. We expect some things to go wrong, these cars have covered some miles and are not new.
As you know, I like Citroens. I however do not work for Citroen, so am unbiased and chose their products due to my own choice. I own a Citroen ZX that has covered 37,000 miles in 22 months ownership, the car has done 107k miles in total. In my 37,000 miles in a 1993 car which is driven very hard, I have replaced the front and rear brakes,the exhaust downpipe and serviced it a few times.Oh, and put an ignition lock in it after I snapped the key (bad luck). Its hardly unreliable is it.
I also once owned a BX GTi that did 187,000 before it blew up. I paid £300 quid for it and got 45,000 miles out of it before it blew. Not a disaster is it.
Have a look at some other forums such as "Honest John" and listen to the tales of woe from owners of new Mondeos and the like. I conclude that Citroens are not all that bad. Certainly, I can't really think of another car like my ZX that is reliable, economical and can cover high mileage quickly and reliably in my price range (it was £1200 quid nearly 2 years ago). If it died tomorrow I'd get out and thank it.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
Some interesting points, I won't deal with them all, but comment as follows.
Citroen is by far the largest part of this forum, and has been since Jan 01 when it was launched. I am not convinced that this is becuase Cits are unreliable. Its more like the fact that we have a hard core membership who are very experienced in Citroens, and provide accurate answers quickly. So this forum became well known as a good place to get advice due to the quality of posts from contributors like Alan S, Dave B and JohnD, NiSk etc.Unfortunately, these stalwarts, myself included don't have a working knoweldge of Renault, although I am not convinced that Renaults are any more reliable. Theres just less posts and less answers.
Theres also the fact that Andyspares has been known in the Citroen world since about 1985.
I'd also comment that for many years, Citroens and Peugeots have shared the same engines, gearboxes as well as other major components in the braking and suspension area (BX, Xan and C5 excepted in the suspension area). Why should a 1.9TD Xantia be any less reliable mechanically than a 406 1.9TD which has the same engine and gearbox made in the same factory?
So, you sell your BX 1.9D and buy a 405 estate with exactly the same engine and gearbox. Chances are that it will too have cooling problems and one day may need a head gasket. Its the same engine.
Finally, what we're dealing with on this forum are not new cars, we are dealing with cars in the 3 to 15 years old bracket from what I see from the majority of posts. We expect some things to go wrong, these cars have covered some miles and are not new.
As you know, I like Citroens. I however do not work for Citroen, so am unbiased and chose their products due to my own choice. I own a Citroen ZX that has covered 37,000 miles in 22 months ownership, the car has done 107k miles in total. In my 37,000 miles in a 1993 car which is driven very hard, I have replaced the front and rear brakes,the exhaust downpipe and serviced it a few times.Oh, and put an ignition lock in it after I snapped the key (bad luck). Its hardly unreliable is it.
I also once owned a BX GTi that did 187,000 before it blew up. I paid £300 quid for it and got 45,000 miles out of it before it blew. Not a disaster is it.
Have a look at some other forums such as "Honest John" and listen to the tales of woe from owners of new Mondeos and the like. I conclude that Citroens are not all that bad. Certainly, I can't really think of another car like my ZX that is reliable, economical and can cover high mileage quickly and reliably in my price range (it was £1200 quid nearly 2 years ago). If it died tomorrow I'd get out and thank it.<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
I used to have a Mercedes A-Class ( from new )...
It had:
A new rear radius arm ( snapped ). I was waiting for three weeks for two bolts to come accross from Germany ( MBZ paid for a nice top of the range Avensis auto - 22mpg <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> for three weeks )
Numerous Alloy wheels - because show then a pothole, and they'd disintegrate.
New gearbox linkage selectors, and subsequenly..
A new gearbox after the original one shredded itself.
I didn't drive it hard ( average 52mpg will show that ).
It can happen to any make or model of car, old or new..
Although it doesn't apply to me now ( 94 car ), the difference between cars to me is not what goes wrong, but how the manufacturer / dealer responds when the go wrong. And on that, I cannot fault MBZ.
It had:
A new rear radius arm ( snapped ). I was waiting for three weeks for two bolts to come accross from Germany ( MBZ paid for a nice top of the range Avensis auto - 22mpg <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> for three weeks )
Numerous Alloy wheels - because show then a pothole, and they'd disintegrate.
New gearbox linkage selectors, and subsequenly..
A new gearbox after the original one shredded itself.
I didn't drive it hard ( average 52mpg will show that ).
It can happen to any make or model of car, old or new..
Although it doesn't apply to me now ( 94 car ), the difference between cars to me is not what goes wrong, but how the manufacturer / dealer responds when the go wrong. And on that, I cannot fault MBZ.
I don't think Citroens are any more prone to faults than Peugeots or Renaults, merely that the methods of fixing a Citroen are sometimes totally different to the methods used on other makes of cars. As a result people often feel the need to discuss a Citroen problem before they tackle the repair, where they would have been more confident in risking a bit of 'trial and error' on another make of car.
For example, there are many posts relating to replacing suspension spheres, whereas there are almost none regarding replacing conventional shock absorbers. Now personally I find it far quicker and easier to replace a set of spheres than a set of traditional shock absorbers, but there are all sorts of tips and tricks that make replacing spheres easier, which aren't necessarily very well known by many people. Shock absorbers, on the other hand, tend to be of those things that you either know how to change or you don't!
I don't doubt that if every of make of car in the world except Citroen used self levelling suspension, there would be all sorts of horror stories about how Citroens have "that funny suspension that doesn’t rise when you switch the engine on!”, how they are hard to change a wheel on because you always need to use to use a jack, or working on their weird "shock absorbers" is dangerous because you need a special tool called a "coil spring compressor", rather than just letting pressure out of the system, etc, etc. !
Nick
For example, there are many posts relating to replacing suspension spheres, whereas there are almost none regarding replacing conventional shock absorbers. Now personally I find it far quicker and easier to replace a set of spheres than a set of traditional shock absorbers, but there are all sorts of tips and tricks that make replacing spheres easier, which aren't necessarily very well known by many people. Shock absorbers, on the other hand, tend to be of those things that you either know how to change or you don't!
I don't doubt that if every of make of car in the world except Citroen used self levelling suspension, there would be all sorts of horror stories about how Citroens have "that funny suspension that doesn’t rise when you switch the engine on!”, how they are hard to change a wheel on because you always need to use to use a jack, or working on their weird "shock absorbers" is dangerous because you need a special tool called a "coil spring compressor", rather than just letting pressure out of the system, etc, etc. !
Nick
I've bought Citroens recently mainly because there's no way I could've got a secondhand (whatever) that would give the same class of driving for the same money. The bigger Cits are expensive to buy new, but their resale value is very low, I think mainly because garages are afraid of them. Outside of the Cit dealers, they just want the thing off their hands, and don't want to have to offer a warranty on it, because they haven't the foggiest idea how to fix it if it needs attention.
I won't say they're rubbish, they're not. They are superb when they're running well. They are high-maintenance cars, though. I speak from experience of running Rover (Leyland) and Ford cars in the past. Both are regarded as the poor man's wheels, but both needed far less attention than the Cits.
A key problem with Cits is poor service information, or the total lack of it. Haynes manuals for other cars are fairly comprehensive, for Cits they miss out all of the areas where trouble does happen, like the hydraulics. As I recently found out, the same even applies to fuel-injection manuals. This makes servicing difficult.
Worst feature I think, is their refusal to standardise on any one type of fastener. On one single assembly, even something as trivial as the radio, you most likely need Torx, Allen keys, sockets, ringspanners, Posidriv, Phillips, flatblade, you name it. Why the blazes they can't standardise on one type of fitting beats me.
I won't say they're rubbish, they're not. They are superb when they're running well. They are high-maintenance cars, though. I speak from experience of running Rover (Leyland) and Ford cars in the past. Both are regarded as the poor man's wheels, but both needed far less attention than the Cits.
A key problem with Cits is poor service information, or the total lack of it. Haynes manuals for other cars are fairly comprehensive, for Cits they miss out all of the areas where trouble does happen, like the hydraulics. As I recently found out, the same even applies to fuel-injection manuals. This makes servicing difficult.
Worst feature I think, is their refusal to standardise on any one type of fastener. On one single assembly, even something as trivial as the radio, you most likely need Torx, Allen keys, sockets, ringspanners, Posidriv, Phillips, flatblade, you name it. Why the blazes they can't standardise on one type of fitting beats me.
Yes that was an interesting post Tom.
I look after a core group of around 40-50 vehicles from the mid 1990s, many Citroens (TD mostly), several Peugeots, a few Renaults and the rest mixed makes.
The most reliable car I deal with is a 1995 Xantia TD that I've known from new and has been free of non-routine repairs. The worse vehicle has to be the Renault Espace (both the 2.0 petrols I look after) which have cost the owners a fortune.
I've also had the interesting experience of watching a Golf 1.8GL and ZX TD Advantage in the family since they were both new in 1993. The ZX had covered 110K and the Golf 90K. Both have been in retired ownership and regularly serviced.
I guess the ZX has needed possibly more repairs but it's due to routine replacement of things like brake discs, radiator, handbrake cables, wishbone bushes etc rather than any actual breakdowns.
I drove them both back to back the other day and noticed the Golf had rust on both rear wheel arches, the ZX has none. The Golf has a split dashboard from heat through the windscreen and a faulty glovebox catch, the ZX interior is fine. Most importantly the ZX feels the more modern driving experience, the ride handling and even useable mid-range performance seem better.
If I had to pick one to use for the next three years it would have to be the ZX, it was actually...we bought it!
David
I look after a core group of around 40-50 vehicles from the mid 1990s, many Citroens (TD mostly), several Peugeots, a few Renaults and the rest mixed makes.
The most reliable car I deal with is a 1995 Xantia TD that I've known from new and has been free of non-routine repairs. The worse vehicle has to be the Renault Espace (both the 2.0 petrols I look after) which have cost the owners a fortune.
I've also had the interesting experience of watching a Golf 1.8GL and ZX TD Advantage in the family since they were both new in 1993. The ZX had covered 110K and the Golf 90K. Both have been in retired ownership and regularly serviced.
I guess the ZX has needed possibly more repairs but it's due to routine replacement of things like brake discs, radiator, handbrake cables, wishbone bushes etc rather than any actual breakdowns.
I drove them both back to back the other day and noticed the Golf had rust on both rear wheel arches, the ZX has none. The Golf has a split dashboard from heat through the windscreen and a faulty glovebox catch, the ZX interior is fine. Most importantly the ZX feels the more modern driving experience, the ride handling and even useable mid-range performance seem better.
If I had to pick one to use for the next three years it would have to be the ZX, it was actually...we bought it!
David
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tomsheppard
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Well, That has stirred up an interesting debate. Lots of sensible and rational arguments. I agree that Renault Espaces seem to be as reliable as politicians' promises and that Citroens seem to be maintenance intensive. The fact that so many elderly (is 10 years elderly?) Citroens scurry about France points to there being a knowledge base over there that this forum is attempting to emulate.
It is concerning to read about faults that recur once considerable time and money have been used to track them down and fix them and I can't help but think that if there is no advantage in unconventional engineering then sticking to the norm is the right thing to do. Royce said that he preferred a complicated system to a simple one if the complicated one worked better. For my part, I wonder if the number of blown up citroen diesels is greater than the number of cooked Peugeots and whether that is due to the peculiar and largely undocumented plurality of systems employed by Citroen. On the basis of If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I would suggest that Citroen have spent a lot of time trying to get it right.
It is concerning to read about faults that recur once considerable time and money have been used to track them down and fix them and I can't help but think that if there is no advantage in unconventional engineering then sticking to the norm is the right thing to do. Royce said that he preferred a complicated system to a simple one if the complicated one worked better. For my part, I wonder if the number of blown up citroen diesels is greater than the number of cooked Peugeots and whether that is due to the peculiar and largely undocumented plurality of systems employed by Citroen. On the basis of If it ain't broke, don't fix it, I would suggest that Citroen have spent a lot of time trying to get it right.
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Jon
Firstly, I thank Tom for starting one of the better topics we've had on this forum! I hope to see some other contributors on this interesting subject of Citroen reliability and durability. I am certainly finding it most interesting myself.
To add to some points made in my previous post, and in the light of other contributions, I'd like to make the point that in their native France, Cits are thought as no more complicated or unreliable than the equivelant Renault of Peugeot products. Indeed any local garage would be able to repair your BX, Xantia, Xm without a second thought, there are very few "independent specialists" like we get here because everyone, even the fastfits work on them. Indeed, whilst in France in the early 90's (my brother lived there for a year) a French bloke I was talking to was telling me he thought Renaults were the worst of all French cars for reliability, and he would always buy a Citroen over a Peugeot! Yet in the UK Citroens are looked after by either main dealers or independent specialists in the main, and are viewed as complicated and unreliable, despite the fact that some products like AX and Saxo are completely uncomplicated. Maybe, its the "funny suspension" (sic)that has reinforced the belief that Citroens are to be avoided. Certainly some dealer's attempts at fixing problems have not helped the marque's image or public perception, resulting in nosedive depreciation, and a lack of maintenance by 2nd or third owners due to percieved cost and complexity coupled with a low buy price.
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
To add to some points made in my previous post, and in the light of other contributions, I'd like to make the point that in their native France, Cits are thought as no more complicated or unreliable than the equivelant Renault of Peugeot products. Indeed any local garage would be able to repair your BX, Xantia, Xm without a second thought, there are very few "independent specialists" like we get here because everyone, even the fastfits work on them. Indeed, whilst in France in the early 90's (my brother lived there for a year) a French bloke I was talking to was telling me he thought Renaults were the worst of all French cars for reliability, and he would always buy a Citroen over a Peugeot! Yet in the UK Citroens are looked after by either main dealers or independent specialists in the main, and are viewed as complicated and unreliable, despite the fact that some products like AX and Saxo are completely uncomplicated. Maybe, its the "funny suspension" (sic)that has reinforced the belief that Citroens are to be avoided. Certainly some dealer's attempts at fixing problems have not helped the marque's image or public perception, resulting in nosedive depreciation, and a lack of maintenance by 2nd or third owners due to percieved cost and complexity coupled with a low buy price.
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
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Jon
Oh no, don't tell me we've let Alan loose on this subject!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
Tom - my onclusion after many years driving BXs and a couple of years trying to fix them myself is this: hydraulic Citroens either float your boat or they don't. If they don't, it's best to leave them to those who prefer them.
But I would reitereate the advice given above that in terms of engines and cooling systems, the Peugeots you refer to are to all intents and purposes identical, though they have a few quirks of their own (when you get your Peugeot estate , check that the bodywork which houses the rear suspension arms hasn't worn away significantly).
One thing that citroens do attract is an enthusiastic aftermarket following quite unlike any other mainstream brand outside of the sporting or prestige category. You're seeing it in action right now......
But I would reitereate the advice given above that in terms of engines and cooling systems, the Peugeots you refer to are to all intents and purposes identical, though they have a few quirks of their own (when you get your Peugeot estate , check that the bodywork which houses the rear suspension arms hasn't worn away significantly).
One thing that citroens do attract is an enthusiastic aftermarket following quite unlike any other mainstream brand outside of the sporting or prestige category. You're seeing it in action right now......
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tomsheppard
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Certainly I always wanted a HP Citroen, having driven a new GS years ago. The BX seemed to be the last car of recognisably Citroenesque character that I could find and I bought one in order to have it before they all disappeared. Once the weather breaks for the better, the Citroen will be repaired because I wish (A)to give it a fair chance and (B) to get some use out of it. My acquaintance in the bar at Carelles tells me that Citroens are Farmers' cars because you can load them to the gunwhales and they remain level and this is why they are so popular in Mayenne. I may yet take the car over there, filling it up frequently along the way and get a French mechanic to fix it. At least they won't multiply the bill by the number of gears in the box because it is a
Citroen!
Citroen!
Number of postings does not neccessarily equal number of problems, for the very good reasons already mentioned. I think it is a measure of the enthusiasm of Citroen owners. My collegue drives a Renault. It's a just car to him, he is simply not interested in it beyond that.
My two Cits have been reliable thus far (touch) wood, compared to the fun and games I had with my VW, which are too numerous to detail here for fear of crashing the server! There was a very good Polo fourm which I was a member of and the numerous posting to that did not indicate that the owners of these cars thought they were rubbish, merely that they were enthusiastic about the model.
My two Cits have been reliable thus far (touch) wood, compared to the fun and games I had with my VW, which are too numerous to detail here for fear of crashing the server! There was a very good Polo fourm which I was a member of and the numerous posting to that did not indicate that the owners of these cars thought they were rubbish, merely that they were enthusiastic about the model.
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rory_perrett
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As I'm in reflective mood I thought I would stick in my 2penny worth.
I don't believe Citroens are any better or worse than anything else but they are different which leads me to the following observation.
When cars are new they are serviced by franchised dealers who (should) know what they are doing. As they get older they fall into the hands of people who don't/can't/won't pay the kind of prices dealers charge for pars and labour so they take them to the "local chap". Because some Citroens are different and expertise comes with familiarity it is only to be expected that your local chap will not be as good with your Xantia as with your neighbours Mondeo (which like everything else. He will charge you more because it takes him longer, he will get it wrong more often and will greet your arrival more negatively. Result you start to believe that your Citroen is more trouble than a Mondeo. Cit values fall so big depreciation becomes another good reason not to have one etc. Finally they fall into the hands of enthusiasts and able DIYers who see them for what they are. The kind of people who use forums like this one.
On a completely unscientific sample of one I believe 6 1/2 years ownership of a BX, 170k miles at 13p a mile with one breakdown would take a bit of beating.
Same thing used to said about Triumph Dolomite Sprints and Stags which I had years ago. Same experience, by them cheap, treat them properly and they are no different to anything else.
I don't believe Citroens are any better or worse than anything else but they are different which leads me to the following observation.
When cars are new they are serviced by franchised dealers who (should) know what they are doing. As they get older they fall into the hands of people who don't/can't/won't pay the kind of prices dealers charge for pars and labour so they take them to the "local chap". Because some Citroens are different and expertise comes with familiarity it is only to be expected that your local chap will not be as good with your Xantia as with your neighbours Mondeo (which like everything else. He will charge you more because it takes him longer, he will get it wrong more often and will greet your arrival more negatively. Result you start to believe that your Citroen is more trouble than a Mondeo. Cit values fall so big depreciation becomes another good reason not to have one etc. Finally they fall into the hands of enthusiasts and able DIYers who see them for what they are. The kind of people who use forums like this one.
On a completely unscientific sample of one I believe 6 1/2 years ownership of a BX, 170k miles at 13p a mile with one breakdown would take a bit of beating.
Same thing used to said about Triumph Dolomite Sprints and Stags which I had years ago. Same experience, by them cheap, treat them properly and they are no different to anything else.