Strange this one.. I park the TGD on a sloping drive. If I park it nose down, there is frequently the following: Lumpy start, a few seconds after start the engine just takes off and revs as high as it can before I can stop it, the fumes are very smokey and smell unusual - a kind of burning smell, the engine sounds really rough with a rather nasty knocking sound. If I park flat or tail down, the car behaves normally. Its done around 177K - could this be the fuel pump..?
FYDAMF
Herbie BX
Moderator: RichardW
Where would I look for leaks or is a silly question? Have looked for fuel leaks but all seems fine. If there was a leak, why would the problem occur when the car was pointing nose down (the drive) and not tail down? Will try your suggestion althouogh I'm scared of blowing engine..is this poss? Also, this problem is intermittent (say once evry other time I start it) so its hard to prove the priming bulb suggestion would work...
FYDAMF
FYDAMF
It actually sounds like you may have more than one problem.
Does this happen regardless of whether the engine is warm or cold ?
Have you checked the accelerator cable to make sure it's not being jammed on anything, especially near the pump ?
The only way to control an diesel engine speed is to regulate the amount of fuel going into it. Therefore it would seem that your engine is getting far too much in some circumstances, and not enough in others.
I'm sure the veterans will have some more to suggest..
Mat.
Does this happen regardless of whether the engine is warm or cold ?
Have you checked the accelerator cable to make sure it's not being jammed on anything, especially near the pump ?
The only way to control an diesel engine speed is to regulate the amount of fuel going into it. Therefore it would seem that your engine is getting far too much in some circumstances, and not enough in others.
I'm sure the veterans will have some more to suggest..
Mat.
A thought/question not a suggestion or solution.
Could this be anything to do with the cold start advance cable not working proper, ie the spring not returning or something similar?
How long does it get left for before it 'goes mad'?
When you turn the ignition off, does the engine to continue to run any time before switching off?
How does it start when not parked on a hill but left in the lovely cold weather?
Does it beltch out any smoke when it starts?
Has any work been done on the car anywhere near the engine, new cam belt, water pump etc?
And finally, when you said herbie BX i so expected a story about a cut-and-shut!!
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
Could this be anything to do with the cold start advance cable not working proper, ie the spring not returning or something similar?
How long does it get left for before it 'goes mad'?
When you turn the ignition off, does the engine to continue to run any time before switching off?
How does it start when not parked on a hill but left in the lovely cold weather?
Does it beltch out any smoke when it starts?
Has any work been done on the car anywhere near the engine, new cam belt, water pump etc?
And finally, when you said herbie BX i so expected a story about a cut-and-shut!!
Vanny
Merseyside, UK
Citroenbx19rd@bxproject.co.uk
http://www.bxproject.co.uk
OK, so many questions..to reply to mbunting 1st
1)I have never tried warm engine when car is nose down
2)There is no cable trapping anywhere - the smoke and noise(a hard knocking)suggests this is not a simple revving situation
vanny
1)the cold start cable seems fine, again smoke and noise suggests something fuel/timing related
2)the engine can run anywhere between 5 - 60 secs before going mad. Interstingly, just before it goes mad, the engine seems to 'hunt' a little, sometimes the pick is gradual, sometimes quite sudden
3)there is a delay (say 1 or mauybe 2 secs) between ignition switch off and the engine beginning to stop
4)In the cold the car starts really well wether on flat or tail pointing down the hill, problems only when nose pointing down
5)If starting normally then the usual amount of smoke, but when it goes mad there is alot of smoke with odd smell (burning smell)
6)I replaced the cam belt about 6 months ago but I've had the problem for longer than that
BTY, there is no emulsification/coolant loss
Sorry to disappoint about the 'cut and shut' but check this out for retro-bx: http://www.chez.com/jacky/images/cars/bx-5/view.html (sorry can't get it to hyperlink)
FYDAMF
1)I have never tried warm engine when car is nose down
2)There is no cable trapping anywhere - the smoke and noise(a hard knocking)suggests this is not a simple revving situation
vanny
1)the cold start cable seems fine, again smoke and noise suggests something fuel/timing related
2)the engine can run anywhere between 5 - 60 secs before going mad. Interstingly, just before it goes mad, the engine seems to 'hunt' a little, sometimes the pick is gradual, sometimes quite sudden
3)there is a delay (say 1 or mauybe 2 secs) between ignition switch off and the engine beginning to stop
4)In the cold the car starts really well wether on flat or tail pointing down the hill, problems only when nose pointing down
5)If starting normally then the usual amount of smoke, but when it goes mad there is alot of smoke with odd smell (burning smell)
6)I replaced the cam belt about 6 months ago but I've had the problem for longer than that
BTY, there is no emulsification/coolant loss
Sorry to disappoint about the 'cut and shut' but check this out for retro-bx: http://www.chez.com/jacky/images/cars/bx-5/view.html (sorry can't get it to hyperlink)
FYDAMF
A clue perhaps is the way it "runs on" after you switched off - that souns along with teh "racing" like engine oil being sucked into the combustion chambers - either via rings failure or valve wear.
This can be very serious indeed - however at 177k if real mileage I'd not expect that of BUX XUD engine.
paulb
This can be very serious indeed - however at 177k if real mileage I'd not expect that of BUX XUD engine.
paulb
This subject was covered here in detail possibly over 12 months ago. May be worth playing with different words in "search" & see if it pops up.
One thing I can remember though, you could have some really major problems if you don't get it traced & sorted really quickly. From memory when it was last discussed, I think it was caused either by a dirty air filter or the engine burning oil. There is a name for it, but basically what can happen is that the engine starts to rev & keeps increasing in revs until it just destroys itself. Turning the key off makes absolutely no difference and the only way to stop the engine is to stall it & hope you don't do damage in the process.
If Dave Burns, John D or some of the diesel owners reads this more into diesels than your truly, perhaps they can recall what the cause & cure might be. I do know when it was last discussed I had just been talking to a local mechanic who was still shaking after a Toyota diesel had done it in his workshop; in that case it was a dirty air filter that was blamed.
In this case, it's only a theory, but I wonder if perhaps oil from the crankcase breather is leaking into the actual engine breathing system and being sucked into the motor? Mat be worth removing & cleaning everything associated with the crankcase breathing & seeing what happens.
Alan S
One thing I can remember though, you could have some really major problems if you don't get it traced & sorted really quickly. From memory when it was last discussed, I think it was caused either by a dirty air filter or the engine burning oil. There is a name for it, but basically what can happen is that the engine starts to rev & keeps increasing in revs until it just destroys itself. Turning the key off makes absolutely no difference and the only way to stop the engine is to stall it & hope you don't do damage in the process.
If Dave Burns, John D or some of the diesel owners reads this more into diesels than your truly, perhaps they can recall what the cause & cure might be. I do know when it was last discussed I had just been talking to a local mechanic who was still shaking after a Toyota diesel had done it in his workshop; in that case it was a dirty air filter that was blamed.
In this case, it's only a theory, but I wonder if perhaps oil from the crankcase breather is leaking into the actual engine breathing system and being sucked into the motor? Mat be worth removing & cleaning everything associated with the crankcase breathing & seeing what happens.
Alan S
Alan,
The engine consuming its own oil would have been my first guess. This is a known possibility also with the old diesel Land Rovers that are my second interest.
On the mid 1980s TDs they can run away with the engine at max revs when this happens.
Another time I've known folks speak of it is if they clean the foam air filter on a BX diesel with petrol, then soak it in oil, re-fit and start up straight away. The engine will rev like crazy as it digests this "fuel".
I'd have a good look at the air cleaner and breathers first on Hippy's.
David
The engine consuming its own oil would have been my first guess. This is a known possibility also with the old diesel Land Rovers that are my second interest.
On the mid 1980s TDs they can run away with the engine at max revs when this happens.
Another time I've known folks speak of it is if they clean the foam air filter on a BX diesel with petrol, then soak it in oil, re-fit and start up straight away. The engine will rev like crazy as it digests this "fuel".
I'd have a good look at the air cleaner and breathers first on Hippy's.
David
Thanks for the help guys, I'll check that out, I guess oil would explain alot (funny smell and problem only when pointing nose-down). I know the air filter is relatively new.. as for mileage, the engine was replaced (I must be mad..) and itself has done 50K, the rest tho' inc fuel pump is original and has covered 177k.
Will have a go this weekend..I'll keep you posted
FYDAMF
Will have a go this weekend..I'll keep you posted
FYDAMF
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
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I would discount the oil theory, if the engine races away uncontrolably consuming its own lubricating oil, then thats what its going to do, the ignition key wont stop it, it would only stop when it had used up its fuel supply, in this case engine oil.
Ways for you to stop it if this happened are blocking the exhaust or discharging a co2 fire extinguisher or other inert gas into the intake, you'd wouldn't stand much chance of stalling it.
I'm not sure if this is a turbo model, TGD would suggest it but I believe this is not necassarily the case with the BX.
Does this car having Rotodiesel/lucas/CAV injection gear.
David,
Never seen one do it but have heard of plenty of Land Rovers burning thier own oil, they get it from the turbo when the oil seals go down, because they'd no intercooler on them, the oil was fired straight in to the manifold.
I used to have a 58 series 2 petrol soft top with the 2 litre side valve engine.
It was a bloody nightmare in winter, set off to work with frozen windows, 17 miles later arriving at work, windows still frozen<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
A bloke I used to work for broke the dipstick on his 1983 Audi 80TD, he then guessed at the oil level but grossly over filled it, as soon as he got up to speed on the slab, whoosh, of the bugger went like the clappers, he said you couldn't see the traffic behind for the black smoke, had to stall it using top gear and the brakes and even then it put up a good fight, buggered the head aswell.
Dave
Ways for you to stop it if this happened are blocking the exhaust or discharging a co2 fire extinguisher or other inert gas into the intake, you'd wouldn't stand much chance of stalling it.
I'm not sure if this is a turbo model, TGD would suggest it but I believe this is not necassarily the case with the BX.
Does this car having Rotodiesel/lucas/CAV injection gear.
David,
Never seen one do it but have heard of plenty of Land Rovers burning thier own oil, they get it from the turbo when the oil seals go down, because they'd no intercooler on them, the oil was fired straight in to the manifold.
I used to have a 58 series 2 petrol soft top with the 2 litre side valve engine.
It was a bloody nightmare in winter, set off to work with frozen windows, 17 miles later arriving at work, windows still frozen<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>
A bloke I used to work for broke the dipstick on his 1983 Audi 80TD, he then guessed at the oil level but grossly over filled it, as soon as he got up to speed on the slab, whoosh, of the bugger went like the clappers, he said you couldn't see the traffic behind for the black smoke, had to stall it using top gear and the brakes and even then it put up a good fight, buggered the head aswell.
Dave
i had a xsara 1.9 td a few weeks ago that was sucking in oil to the engine via the turbo oil feed pipe.it came in a non start when i checked the glow plugs 3 out 4 had totally erodded away.replaced the plugs.on road test i had to stall it when it took off itself,(very nearly caused a major pile up).new turbo cured it.
Dave,
I was thinking of a small amount of oil collecting somewhere on this BX that was enough to make it rev for a few seconds and then come back to idle. It could be Hippy thinks he is stopping it by turning off but in fact if he was brave enough to leave it the revving might stop anyway.
Re LRs. We are running a diesel where the chassis/running gear/part body are just two years newer than your old one...42yrs old. It's been rebuilt over the years with many bits swapped about so is something of a hybrid now. With two three mile journeys a day this time of year, it never really gets unfrozen inside!
David
I was thinking of a small amount of oil collecting somewhere on this BX that was enough to make it rev for a few seconds and then come back to idle. It could be Hippy thinks he is stopping it by turning off but in fact if he was brave enough to leave it the revving might stop anyway.
Re LRs. We are running a diesel where the chassis/running gear/part body are just two years newer than your old one...42yrs old. It's been rebuilt over the years with many bits swapped about so is something of a hybrid now. With two three mile journeys a day this time of year, it never really gets unfrozen inside!
David
Haven't I seen somewhere reports of the rotodiesel pump allowing runaway if there is air in the fuel supply? The explanation offered there was something along the lines that a column of fuel was used to communicate with the govenor and if this was interupted the governor allowed the thing to go to full power with no control?
Sorry - can't be more specific - been looking for a decent guide and cutaway drawiings for the pump for years!
Jeremy
Sorry - can't be more specific - been looking for a decent guide and cutaway drawiings for the pump for years!
Jeremy