Activa Timing Check? Crank Pulley Miles Out..

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Mar 2007, 16:48

I swapped the cambelt on the Activa today. Not a difficult job. A bit fiddly perhaps.

When I lined up the timing marks as per BoL (for the XM Turbo Engine as the Xantia BoL makes no reference to the Turbo engine at all) I found that the timing hole in the crank pulley was a good 60 odd degrees off the timing datum on the crankcase when the cam sprocket was lined up with its datum.

The crank pulley is in good condition so I cannot attribute this to the pulley breaking up or having spun between inner and outer.

In the event, there were scribed marks where the belt had been replaced previously which lined up OK so I used those.

Now I'm a bit concerned. Although it runs fine, I'd like to confirm the cam timing is right. How can I do this without reference to the crank pulley hole?

Do these engines have a timing datum in the flywheel as per the diesels or does one find TDC on No. 4 cyliner with a DTI and work from there?

Many thanks as always...

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 10 Mar 2007, 19:47

Hi Jim,

If its out by 60 degrees the outer part of the crank pulley MUST have turned on the rubber - theres no other possibility. (I'm assuming you turned the engine over enough times to give both holes a chance of lining up at the same time...)

Doesn't matter whether it looks like its turned on the rubber or not, you won't be able to see anything visible.

Try marking a line across both parts of the pulley and then check it again in a few weeks and I bet you they don't line up any more, in which case its new pulley time.

Both the ones I did were only out by half a hole. (Maybe 5 degrees - it was just enough that you couldn't insert a peg)

Supposedly there is indeed another timing reference on the flywheel - but you have to remove the starter to see it. Since doing that looked like a right swine of a job (all the mounting bolts facing the wrong way

) I didn't attempt it and just used the marking the pulleys and belt method.

If it runs fine you must have got it right, as even one tooth out and you're in serious do-do's....

Regards,
Simon

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Mar 2007, 20:13

Thanks Simon,

After I posted, I looked at the pulley again and the rubber has numerous lateral hair-line cracks in it so it's really fit only for the bin.

I say it runs fine but on the low CR Turbo engine it can be a way off before trouble sets in and I'm such a person that I cannot trust it unless I'm 100% happy so on Monday I'm off to apply for a second mortgage and then visit my local, friendy Citroen dealer to no doubt get royally robbed for a new pulley.

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 10 Mar 2007, 20:18

What makes you think it can be way off without problems ? I'm pretty sure you'll find that two teeth out and you'll have pistons hitting valves.... and one tooth out will certainly affect the performance at the very least.

Even if you get the new pulley you might find the holes dont quite line up - as I found on the two I did, so you'd still have to check the timing via the flywheel mark if you're really paranoid.

The main reason to replace the pulley is so that when it eventually shreds the rubber you won't be stranded in the middle of nowhere with no auxillary devices like hydraulic pump and alternator....

Regards,
Simon

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Mar 2007, 20:36

I was just thinking there will be a little more clearance between valves and pistons in a Turbo engine and because mine seems to be so far out.

It really is a tremendous way off if you go by timing holes. I'd not have expected the outer ring to have slipped that much and the rubber to look undamaged except for the hair-line cracks.

If I'm right, the datum is at about 10 o'clock and the pulley hole is at 1 o'clock, hidden behind the bottom hose clip, when the cam sprocket is lined up with its datum.

On performance, I'm assuming mine is OK but I have nothing to reference it against and now I'm worried because there are a few minor niggles I have with the engine. Firstly, as it starts it kind of "hisses" for an instant and does not seem to have the "urge" I would have expected, it always idles a bit lumpily and it takes a finite while for revs to drop back down to idle when chaging gear and drawing up to a halt. It runs a little on the hot side despite new rad and thermostat although it does not use a spot of water. So maybe it is not quite right.

It is heavy on fuel but I believe that is normal.

So could all this point to the valve timing being out? It certainly pulls OK low down but does not have the "push you into the back of your seat" they are rumoured to have when you really push the throttle down.

It is a bit woorying that even new pullys can be out. I must say this is a terrible piece of design by Citroen!!!

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 10 Mar 2007, 20:46

All XU engines have a datum hole in the flywheel.
This is locked by a dowel inserted from engine side, under/behind the starter motor, into the flywheel.

Not that I've said its easy to get at

Xaccers · Post by **Xaccers** » 10 Mar 2007, 20:50

I could only get to the flywheel hole on my 1.9 by removing the starter motor, which wasn't hard.

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Mar 2007, 20:51

AndersDK wrote: Not that I've said its easy to get at

On an Activa Anders, NOTHING is easy to get at

So, exactly the same place as on an XUD then. I wonder if my special bit of bent rod will find it for me..

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 10 Mar 2007, 21:22

citrojim wrote:On performance, I'm assuming mine is OK but I have nothing to reference it against and now I'm worried because there are a few minor niggles I have with the engine. Firstly, as it starts it kind of "hisses" for an instant and does not seem to have the "urge" I would have expected, it always idles a bit lumpily and it takes a finite while for revs to drop back down to idle when chaging gear and drawing up to a halt. It runs a little on the hot side despite new rad and thermostat although it does not use a spot of water. So maybe it is not quite right.

It is heavy on fuel but I believe that is normal.

I can't say that mine takes time to return to idle, does your 'K' (diagnostic) light stay illuminated for a few seconds after starting? Idle wise its just typical of a 4 cylinder engine.

My Activa 'runs hot' even at this time of year, unless I have the aircon on or I'm travelling at 40+ MPH, the temperature climbs beyond 90 degrees quite quickly until the fans cut in. A CT Turbo estate I owned a few years ago was the same, it gave me a bit of a shock at first until I checked everything out. Performance wise they aren't very quick I think the 0-60 is a rather lethargic (for a performance car) 9.5 seconds.

By the way, the crank pulley on my Activa was way out of alignment as well.

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 10 Mar 2007, 21:24

Alan S

I forgot about the pulley business mainly because whenever I do a cambelt, I always use the belt and sprocket markings with a Tippex pen as a back up to ensure the belt goes on as it comes off. (Thank you for that tip a few years back Anders)
Possibly the easiest cambelt job I've done on a Cit.

If you follow the above, it's not a problem unless of course, the original one was out, then it's a whole new ball game.

If there's any pics of the timing hole on a new or undamaged pulley in relation to the wudruff key on the crank, wouldn't that be some guide?

Alan S

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Mar 2007, 21:34

DickieG wrote: I can't say that mine takes time to return to idle, does your 'K' (diagnostic) light stay illuminated for a few seconds after starting? Idle wise its just typical of a 4 cylinder engine.

My Activa 'runs hot' even at this time of year, unless I have the aircon on or I'm travelling at 40+ MPH, the temperature climbs beyond 90 degrees quite quickly until the fans cut in. A CT Turbo estate I owned a few years ago was the same, it gave me a bit of a shock at first until I checked everything out. Performance wise they aren't very quick I think the 0-60 is a rather lethargic (for a performance car) 9.5 seconds.

By the way, the crank pulley on my Activa was way out of alignment as well.

Phew,

Now that makes me feel much better! I was really getting the old paranoia going until your post

No, the K light is perhaps the most well behaved item on the car. It goes out immediately the car starts and never comes on again until the next start. I't can't be too bad also because the tail pipe on the exhaust is so clean you could eat your dinner out of it.

Thanks too for the reassurance on the hot running. I guess having the rad behind the aircon condenser and the intercooler is not the best for ultimate cooling efficiency. It was the thought of it running hot that made me replace the rad and thermostat! I'm too used to diesels and my 205GTi that is, if anything, overcooled.

I'll sleep better now...

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Mar 2007, 21:42

alan s wrote: unless of course, the original one was out, then it's a whole new ball game.

Indeed, this is still a worry in the back of my mind although I used the tippex method today to refit the belt.

alan s wrote: If there's any pics of the timing hole on a new or undamaged pulley in relation to the wudruff key on the crank, wouldn't that be some guide?
Alan S

Some pics would indeed be invaluable Alan..

I have a dim memory of this subject being discussed in the long and distant past but I don't think it was this forum. I remember there were diagrams and pictures. I'll go off and have a search. I may be gone some time...

DickieG · Post by **DickieG** » 10 Mar 2007, 21:50

citrojim wrote: Some pics would indeed be invaluable Alan..

PM me your email address and I'll send you a couple I took of My Activa when I changed the belt.

By the way the fact that the 'K' light goes out as soon as the car starts suggests that no faults are recorded in the ECU

Post by **CitroJim** » 10 Mar 2007, 22:41

Thanks Dickie, PM sent!

One thing I did find in my searches is that the engine will run (albeit not well) with the cam timing plus or minus 3 teeth out. No damage was reported to be caused when one person reported one six teeth out. It would idle but not rev

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 10 Mar 2007, 23:14

Look on here under "Changing the Xantias cambelt html" as I think this is what you may have been looking for.

http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane/xantia/xantia.html

Alan S