Xantia blower motors

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ed4ferrets
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by ed4ferrets » 24 Oct 2012, 14:25

thanks Clogzz, it's starting to make some sense to me now.. will check it out!
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by ed4ferrets » 24 Oct 2012, 19:10

Well it was a brief moment of clarity anyhow!

the relay does click so it would seem the switch contact is ok.

there is full battery voltage to the thick red wire.

am I therefore right in thinking the fan should be spinning?

as it is not spinning does that mean the fan motor itself is faulty?

I have replaced the pcb and checked the brushes, also checked all related fuses as per owner's handbook


Then there is the rear window heater not working, again the timer and switch fuse checked as well as the heater fuse itself.


I'm not a fisherman so wouldn't recognise a red herring if it bit me on the ass but I suspect there may be a few around in my car #-o
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by Clogzz » 25 Oct 2012, 15:19

Try connecting the two thick wires straight to the motor to see if it spins then.
That bypasses the PCB which even if known to be good can still prevent the motor from spinning because one of the thin wire voltages may be wrong.
If the motor doesn’t spin straight from the battery voltage, it will be faulty.

There may be an unrelated fault with the rear window heater.
A wire in the loom from the roof into the hatch may be broken.
The timer can also be checked for clicking when switched on.

Best wishes. :)
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by clydeowenp » 10 Aug 2015, 05:53

Hi everyone, I've just joined the forum today but have been a regular visitor for some time, when I've had a problem, and usually I can find the answer. Unfortunately I now find myself having to admit the Xantia blower gremlin has defeated me and I have to ask the experts for help.
I've owned French cars for many years including Renault 4, 5, 12TS and 18 Turbo. When I decided to change to diesel I brought a BX MK1 and stripped it to the shell and rebuilt it including fitting air conditioning and making and replacing all the hydraulic pipes. I've also owned 2 BX MK 2 estates which needed extensive work so I'm no stranger to Citroens.
My latest car is a 2000 Xantia Hdi Exclusive Estate which I have owned from new. There's been a problem brewing with the blower for some time now. When on automatic the blower would run on full speed and keep stopping but would work as it should if I set the speed manually. A few weeks ago I noticed the blower wasn't working at all and nor was the air conditioning. It did start working again for one journey but has not worked again since. A/C not working either but started working again the only time the blower started working again.
I have read various posts on here and downloaded wiring diagrams and posts to help me check various things but no luck.
Here's what I've done so far and my conclusions, please feel free to correct me if I've got anything wrong
With reference to the owners Handbook checked fuses,
F21 direct feed to blower, fuse OK
F12 blower relay, fuse OK.
Checked voltage at F21, OK.
Checked voltage at F12, OK.
Removed blower motor & disconnect wires.
Put 12v across blower motor, runs smooth, quiet & at full speed. Checked brushes free and not excessively worn, OK.
Checked brown 4 pin plug on motor, plug and contacts on motor clean, not burned or corroded and very tight fit.
Checked voltage across thick red (pin 4 positive) & and thick black (pin 2 earth) ignition on 0v engine running 0v.
Using a live feed and earth from accessory socket;
Took reading between live from accessory socket and pin 2 (black) 12v (14.2v engine running)
Took reading between earth on accessory socket and pin 4 (red) 0v (0v engine running
Removed and checked blower relay, pins clean and connections tight, not burned or corroded.
Put 12v supply across pins 1 & 2 of the blower relay, relay clicks.
Checked continuity between pins 3 & 5 of blower relay, OK, also checked with a bulb in circuit using pins 3 & 5 as a switch, OK.
Checked voltage at pin 3 of blower relay socket, (12v). OK
Bridged pin 3 & 5 of blower relay socket now have 12v (14.2v engine running) at pin 4 of speed regulator plug.
Checked voltage across pins 1 & 2 (ignition on 2.4v, engine running 2.4v)
Checked voltage between live on accessory socket and pin 2 (earth) on blower relay socket (12v, 14.2v engine running) OK
Checked voltage between earth on accessory socket and pin 1 (live) on blower relay socket (2.4v ignition on, 2.4v engine running)
CONCLUSION SO FAR;
Fault is on live feed to pin 1 of blower relay, should be 12v (14.2v). This is fed from F12 according to the owners manual for my car. The MK 2 DIAGRAM I DOWNLOADED FROM THE FORUM SAYS F5 BUT MY OWNERS HANDBOOK (Printed January 2000) SAYS F5 FEEDS HEATED REAR SCREEN TIMER, HEATED SEATS & DAYTIME RUNNING LIGHTS. I've just checked the owners handbook for the 1998 turbo D (printed November 1997) and it shows pin 1 of the air blower relay fed from F5. Does anyone know if this is because mine is an Exclusive or is there a later wiring diagram available? If I remove F12 I have 0v across pins 1 & 2 of the blower relay socket.
F12 also feeds instrument panel & stop lamp switch (both working), Cooling fan relay & coolant temperature control unit, (not checked) and A/C switch no light in switch so assumed not working.
I have a donor car, a 1998 Xantia turbo D and have removed the dashboard to make it easier to trace the wiring. This also has climate control and although the wiring isn't exactly the same it has been a help. I have worked out how to remove the fuse box and fan blower relay socket and the wire from pin 1 (green) goes into a green connector which disappears into the fuse box so I can't trace it any further. I took the fuse box out of the donor car and managed to get it apart without destroying it. This wasn't much help as the inside consists of 2 circuit boards about 5mm apart with a piece of insulating material between them. There are many pins connecting the 2 boards which are soldered so it's impossible to trace the connections, or check for bad joints, corrosion or burning. The fuse box does have that electrical burnt smell but as it has lots of ventilation holes s I suspect it gets hot in use. What I intend to do next is to try and drop the fuse box and blower fuse socket in my Hdi. I hope I can trace the wire from pin 1 to the fuse box and check it for continuity. If the wire is OK and I have 12v at F12 I suspect that there may be a bad connection within the fuse box between the fuse output and the wiring plug. Does this sound reasonable and does anyone know of any history of problems with the fuse box? The fuse box on the donor car is the same part number as mine so if I can get enough access to the wiring plugs I may try changing the fuse box. My main concern is that this is 2 years older than the one I have fitted so if this is a common fault it's probably worse than the one I'm replacing.
I did try changing the ignition switch for the one in the donor car but it was exactly the same. I dismantled and inspected both switches. The one fitted to the donor car is made by Simplex and has a black switch. One contact was burned even though the Turbo D has relay fitted to the blower motor as standard. The original switch from the HdI is made by Valeo and the switch is white and the same type as those sold on ebay, the wires are much thicker and the design is far better. This switch was in excellent condition with no burning and very little sign of wear. I sprayed it with contact cleaner and re assembled it and I'm confident the problem is not there. I also checked the 3 plugs and sockets which show no signs of burning or corrosion and are nice and tight.
I also checked the voltages from the climate control ECU to pin 3 of the speed controller, not quite sure how this works so not sure if I check these between orange and live or orange and earth. I checked between orange and live first time and got 14.4v regardless of slider position. Later I read something in a post which suggested I need to check these voltages between orange and earth, I did this, can't remember the voltages now but think they were something like 3.3v or 3.3mv, anyway they were the same regardless of slider position so not as they should be.
I read a post earlier which suggested checking the voltage supply to the climate ECU and on the MK 2 diagram this is to pin 5 of the ECU and is fed from Fuse 12. If this is correct (bearing in mind this diagram says the blower relay is fed from F5 but on mine it's fed from F12) I expect to find no power to the ECU as it's fed from the same fuse as the blower relay (F12). Unfortunately neither of my handbooks show which fuse feeds the ECU. I have 12v feed into fuse 12 and the fuse is good so it makes me very suspicious of the fuse box. If I can get access to the back of the fuse box and trace the wire from the blower relay pin 1 to the fuse box I can check that I have power where the wire goes into the fuse box. I will also try and trace the wire from pin 5 of the ECU to the fuse box. I can then check the wire for continuity and also check if I have power where it goes into the fuse box. This should help me confirm whether the fault is in the fuse box between the output from the fuse to the connecting plug. Hopefully the donor car with the dash removed will be some help in tracing the ECU feed wire.
OTHER INFORMATION THAT MIGHT HELP YOUR DIAGNOSIS;
I removed the speed controllers from both motors and both are clean with no burning or corrosion, a few small light rust spots on the transistors but no signs of them getting wet. Tried both but neither worked, however I know the donor car had a problem with the fan running at full speed so that controller may be faulty, the owner just took the relay out!
Both blower motors are in good condition and work perfectly when connected to a 12v supply.
Both climate ECU's look the same but when I changed them over it still didn't work.
Both heater control panels look the same but changing them over didn't make it work.
WHAT I WILL DO NEXT, unless the experts can suggest something better!
Drop the fuse box and relay socket and check continuity of wire to pin 1 of relay
Check for a live feed to pin 5 of the ECU
If no power trace / check continuity of wire between ECU pin 5 and fuse box
IF THESE CHECKS FAIL;
Make up some extension leads from the blower relay to the relay plug.
Connect the relay to the plug using these leads to connect pins 2, 3 & 5
Connect a live feed from the accessory socket to pin 1
If no power to ECU run a temporary live feed to pin 5 of the ECU
If it still doesn't work buy a box of matches and a gallon of petrol before the insurance runs out!!
Sorry this post is long, I expect after reading this I'll be added to a few peoples Foes list! I hope it makes sense, It's gone 5am and I've been at this most of the day and all night! Gonna try & get a couple of hours sleep before I fall asleep at the computer.
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by rory_perrett » 10 Aug 2015, 09:17

When you put the A/C on.how bright is the light on the A/C switch? Is it as it should be, not on at all, or on but dim?
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by clydeowenp » 10 Aug 2015, 14:48

Hi, A/C not working, no light in switch, no signs of life, ie relays clicking etc.
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by rory_perrett » 10 Aug 2015, 18:01

Similar symptoms on 2 cars it was the supply from fuse 12 to the relay. I just put a new wire in to bridge and all was good.
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clydeowenp
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by clydeowenp » 04 Aug 2016, 18:24

Hi everybody, can't believe it's been almost a year since I wrote the very long post above. I've had another car to use so I've only just got round to resolving this problem. Rory Perrett thanks for your post which confirmed I was heading in the right direction. I ran a test lead from the accessory socket to the relay and everything burst into life. I couldn't trace the wire from the fuse to the relay, I think it joins with another wire and changes its number, however, numbers on diagram don't correspond to numbers on my loom!. The fuse box was hanging loose anyway and all the plugs are colour coded so I changed the fuse box, I had one from my spares car and it's the same part number. Much to my surprise this cured the problem and everything now works except the air con which needs a re-gas. I confirmed this by bridging the pressure switch on the condenser and the clutch on the compressor engaged. An added bonus was that the digital clock now works for the first time in years, I had to reset the time every time I started the car and the display was often very dim or not working. I swapped the fuse box back to confirm and everything stopped working again. While everything was dismantled I tested all the parts from the spares car so if I have problems in the future I have spares that are tested and working. I couldn't find the fault with old fuse box even after destroying it to take it apart.
Many thanks for all the information members have posted on here regarding this subject, the wiring diagrams, relay locations, test voltages and check lists. These have all helped me to eliminate different things and kept me on the right route to a resolution, and of course saved me a fortune in spare parts and garage bills. I've saved and printed this information in case I have problems in the future. I deliberately haven't listed names because I'm afraid I'll leave someone out!
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by chinkostu » 05 Aug 2016, 09:19

French electrics aren't unreliable but they can throw some funky issues as you've found out! how easy was it to swap the fusebox out though? theres not much room under the dash to get at it!

I had a Saxo where the Electric PAS pump and the radiator fan both stopped working. Could not find the issue for ages, fuses were fine and everything else on the car worked. Turned out the wire leading from the battery to the fusebox under the bonnet that had perished! How everything else worked completely baffled me.
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by Rhothgar » 12 Nov 2016, 14:47

Gentlemen. Good afternoon.

The time has come for me to do the S1 ignition mod methinks.

HRE and Blower have completely stopped working recently.

I need the easiest solution to fix.

Mandrake's solution seems to be the simplest. Correct me if I'm wrong. For some reason, the pictures off his post won't open. If they are down, does anyone on the forum have a copy of them so I can at least try to understand what he is describing.
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by CitroJim » 12 Nov 2016, 15:44

Somewhere deep in my blog is how I did mine Roger, complete with photos... Look also for posts by admiral51 as he did a good write-up on it too... I can't do any more right now as I'm on a train...
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by Rhothgar » 12 Nov 2016, 16:00

Train journey! Nice and relaxing way to travel. I have seen the admiral51 post as well but I think that involves the relay mod which seems a little more involved than Mandrake's suggestion. I'll revisit the admiral51 one through your blog.

There's so many posts about this issue these days that even the Sticky seems confusing to me.

Hope you're keeping well Jim!
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by CitroJim » 12 Nov 2016, 17:21

All of them need the relay Roger, there is no way around it... That is the essence of the mod...

I've been to the NEC Classic Car Show today... So much easier to go there by train than by car and very relaxing...
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by Mandrake » 12 Nov 2016, 17:33

Rhothgar wrote:Gentlemen. Good afternoon.

The time has come for me to do the S1 ignition mod methinks.

HRE and Blower have completely stopped working recently.

I need the easiest solution to fix.

Mandrake's solution seems to be the simplest. Correct me if I'm wrong. For some reason, the pictures off his post won't open. If they are down, does anyone on the forum have a copy of them so I can at least try to understand what he is describing.

The hosting company that hosted the original image files is long gone, that's why the links were broken.

I was able to retrieve a copy of the images from an old backup and host them on dropbox so I've updated the image links in my original posts! :)

Check back near the beginning of this thread to see them.
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Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
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Re: Xantia blower motors

Post by myglaren » 12 Nov 2016, 17:35

CitroJim wrote:I've been to the NEC Classic Car Show today... So much easier to go there by train than by car and very relaxing...


Oh the ironing! :roll:
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