Xantia blower motors

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Mandrake
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Xantia blower motors

Post by Mandrake » 26 Feb 2007, 08:44

Argh...

It had to happen... finally the interior blower fans on my Xantia have stopped working. :evil: :evil: (Right in the middle of summer too)

A few months back the first symptom I noticed was occasionally the fan speed control would stop working - whatever speed it was set to it would continue to run at regardless of the speed slider, until you turned the key off.

Then a month or so the behaviour changed - when it played up it would drop to a low speed and stay at that low speed until turning the key off and on.

Then today it stopped altogether. The interesting thing is that the automatic temperature flap is STILL working, (along with the temperature sensor fan) do they run from the same switched supply as the blowers or a seperate one ? The fans did work again once more after turning the key off and on but its stopped again, seemingly for good.

Should I start by checking the ignition switch and doing the relay mod (but perhaps its too late if its stopped altogether ?) or could the fault be in the speed controller and if so is that a dashboard out job to get at it ? :cry:

Sigh...

Regards,
Simon
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1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver

1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
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Post by alan s » 26 Feb 2007, 09:32

Just do the mod as there's a 90% chance that will fix it.
Mine went last year just prior to the trip to hell and back where it hit 50 and was sitting on 47 at 8 pm one night.
Did the entire trip of around 1700 klms in those temps with 5 up and a load of luggage and the air went perfect all the way.


Alan S
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Post by jeremy » 26 Feb 2007, 10:00

If I thought the key switch might be at fault - I'd start by arranging an alternative supply bypassing the key switch and see if it worked properly. Alternative is to meter the key switch supply when it fails or put a bulb in parallel or something so you can see what's going on. The alternative you choose will probably be dictated by convenience - ie its probably difficult to get into the circuit as fiddling with plugs will affect other circuits but quite easy to tap the relevant using a scotchlock and fixing a bulb in parallel (ie between the motor feed wire from the switch and earth.
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Post by Peter.N. » 26 Feb 2007, 12:25

Start by checking for 12v on the thick red/black leads on the blower motor under the glove box, if no volts - ignition switch or other electrical feed problem, if 12 v - probably the regulator transistors on the motor.
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Post by Clogzz » 26 Feb 2007, 15:01

The switch going strange first causes loss of speed control.
At high speeds, it causes the speed to drop.
The speed regulator no longer works and the fan keeps spinning on the ‘off’ setting.
Probably loss of voltage to the electronic motor drive.
Turning the key fixes it for a few minutes.
The flap and sensor fan are fed from another supply.
The switch contact for the blower also operates the rear demister timer.
The heating current for the demister doesn’t pass through the ignition switch.
If the demister still works when the blower is turned off, then the switch is still good to operate a relay.
There’s also this map from RichardW:

http://www.geocities.com/tricky992002/fanmod.xls
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Post by Mandrake » 26 Feb 2007, 18:50

Thanks Cloggz, thats very helpful. I'll check the demister properly tonight. It seems to turn on, does that mean its ok ? Or does the 12 minute timeout have to work to prove its ok ?

I was just thinking - presumably there is more than one ignition contact that provides 12v in the fully on position ? If so, even if the blower motor contact is burnt out, surely I could piggy back the relay coil on another ignition contact ? (Since the relay coil would only draw a few hundred mA)

Regards,
Simon
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Post by Clogzz » 27 Feb 2007, 04:12

Hello Simon,

About 1: PM here, bludging at work, with the company in ‘voluntary administration’, or in my language: keeled over in the gutter.
They told us that they had cut off our internet, so how did I see and send this then ? :?:

The demister switching doesn’t have to be tested for the full timed period, and the switch is still good for a relay if it does turn on the demister timer every time it’s switched on, for a duration that just enables you to ascertain that it does work and heats the window.
If you have a piece of wire and test lamp handy, Jeremy’s and Peter’s ideas above will make the test faster, and in the process possibly indicate where to tap into next for a permanent fix.

If you want to use another switched contact to operate the relay, there’s wire 1 of the grey plug to the ignition switch.
It’s got 12V out on ignition and accessories.
That you can tap into from the radio or somewhere near there.

Black plug NR wire 1: Unfused permanent 12 Volts from battery.
Black plug NR wire 2: 12V out when starting only.

Grey plug GR wire 1: 12V out on ignition and accessories.
Grey plug GR wire 2: 12V out on starting and ignition.

Brown plug MR wire 1: Unfused permanent 12V from battery.
Brown plug MR wire 2: 12V out on ignition only.


If you trust the cigarette lighter wire and fuse, you can feed the blower from it, without need to break into the steering column shrouds.
The old blower supply wire gets used to operate the relay dangled inside the cover above the passenger floor.

Enjoy a good fiddle.

Regards,
Terry.
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Post by Mandrake » 27 Feb 2007, 08:54

Thanks again Clogzz,

I'll print this thread out and have a go at doing the proper relay mod this weekend - I was already planning to do it and had bought a relay in preparation, but now I guess I'm forced to do it! :evil:

2 days without air conditioning or fan and I'm already suffering... (the aircon is actually working, but with no way of blowing air through it, it doesn't work too well :wink: )

Regards,
Simon
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1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver

1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
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Post by alan s » 27 Feb 2007, 10:02

Mandrake wrote:Thanks again Clogzz,

I'll print this thread out and have a go at doing the proper relay mod this weekend - I was already planning to do it and had bought a relay in preparation, but now I guess I'm forced to do it! :evil:

2 days without air conditioning or fan and I'm already suffering... (the aircon is actually working, but with no way of blowing air through it, it doesn't work too well :wink: )

Regards,
Simon


Drive with selector switch in fresh air instead of recirculate and leave front windows down about 15mm and the through draught will cool it reasonably well.
Works on the open road but a bit weak around town.

Alan S
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Post by Mandrake » 27 Feb 2007, 10:17

Drive with selector switch in fresh air instead of recirculate and leave front windows down about 15mm and the through draught will cool it reasonably well.
Works on the open road but a bit weak around town.

Alan S

Is there any risk of the evaporator icing with no air flow through it ? Most of my driving is around town...

Regards,
Simon
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1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver

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1978 CX 2400
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Post by alan s » 27 Feb 2007, 22:50

That's controlled by the climate control.
I used mine like that for a while with no problems and I'd expect I'd be in a hotter and much more humid environment than NZ with 35 degrees and 80+% being quite common.
The air flow is provided by the car moving and if normally used in fresh air position, it seems the extra air pumped through via the blower fan is only minmal anyway.


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Post by Mandrake » 03 Mar 2007, 10:08

Hi All,

Success! 8)

I got everything sorted today and thought I'd document it here (including pictures) to help out anyone else that may be contemplating the same job...

As I suspected, the ignition switch WASN'T the reason the blower failed completely, the first thing I did was measure the voltage on both sides of F20 (the 30A blower fuse) while the engine was running, and normal voltage was present - so I knew immediately the ignition switch wasn't the problem.

For those that don't know, the blower is easily accessed in the top left of the passenger footwell, by just removing the upper "carpet" material. There are 3 plugs going into the blower - a large red and large black one which are the main power supply, and a 4 pin plug which also includes a large red and a large black wire, and two smaller wires which are control signals.

See the following:

Image

After simply unplugging and refitting the 3 cables the blower started working again, so I realised I had intermitant connections...so I pulled them all out, cleaned and tensioned them and put them back, and its working fine.

However the original problem of intermitant fan speed control was probably still present, so next I tackled the ignition switch. This is what I found: :evil: :evil:

Image

Yes, thats right, on a car that was only 8 when I bought it, somebody has ALREADY hotwired the blower power to run off the main ignition contacts but without a relay. :evil:

Checking with an ohm meter confirmed my worst fears - the original blower contacts on the switch are totally stuffed - randomly varying from a few ohms to a few thousand ohms every time you turn it on and off, so not even good enough to run a relay coil. :(

The problem with what they've done is that not only will the blower burn out the new contacts eventually if left there, but when it does it will disable the car as there wouldn't be any ignition power for the engine.

(Not to mention that the fan speed varies with the blinkers and brake lights, and the dash lights all dim with the fan coming on)

I ended up doing the relay mod quite differently to the ways described in the various threads, and I think my way is a lot simpler and easier to implement (no extra fuses or runs of wire back to the battery) and probably more reliable. (Not relying on the faulty switch contacts to power the relay coil)

Final result:

Image

The two wires coming from the brown plug going to the switch are cut, extended, and go to the normally open contacts of the relay. (The two black wires in the picture with the taped joins)

The two cut wires from the switch are not live but I taped them up anyway. They are not used on any other switch contacts.

Pin 1 on the brown plug is the seperate supply run from the battery for the blower, and pin 2 goes across to F20 in the fuse box.

To get power for the relay coil, I tapped into the wire on pin 2 of the grey plug - this is the normal ignition switch output that goes to the engine ECU and is live in ignition on and starter mode, but not accessory.

Earth for the relay coil I took from a large bolt to the right of the fuse box. There is a convienient place to mount the relay on the side of the bonnet pull bracket which has plenty of clearance from other objects.

The consequences for this approach (compared to others) are:

a) The blower runs from the correct 12v feed from the battery - both pin 1 of the brown plug and pin 1 of the black plug go back to the battery unfused, but they are seperate runs of cable, and if you run the blower from the black plug the voltage drop that it causes will affect all other accessories such as dashboard lights, blinkers, power to the engine ECU etc. Also the blinkers, stop lights etc affect the fan speed.

When the blower runs from the brown plug this interaction doesn't happen, because the voltage drop the blower causes only affects the blower, and the voltage drop the lights cause don't affect the blower.

b) Using pin 2 of the grey plug to power the relay coil means you're not relying on dodgy contacts to run the coil - the downside of this is that the relay will also be on in starter mode as well as ignition on mode.

In actual fact this is not a problem because the fan controller will not activate the blower until the engine is started and has been running for a couple of seconds anyway - it never tries to run the fans during starting the engine, so it's a non issue.

c) No seperate fuses required - F20 of the fuse box is still the fuse that runs the blowers, so if the blower fuse blows you're not taking apart the steering column to replace the "extra" fuse fitted there with the other methods...

Hope this is of use to someone. And note that this only applies to Mk1 Xantia's. (Mk2's already have a relay for the blower)

Regards,
Simon

Edit: Updated picture links.
Last edited by Mandrake on 12 Nov 2016, 17:31, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by David W » 03 Mar 2007, 11:45

Simon,

I don't have this issue to deal with at the moment but thanks for a brilliant write-up with useful images... one for the archives I think.

David
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Post by Clogzz » 03 Mar 2007, 15:41

That’s the neatest possible job ! :D

on a car that was only 8 when I bought it

Did mine in 1998 when the car was only 3 years old with about 40,000 km up.
The Citroën mechanic gave me a hand-drawn map of the modification, with relay, extra wire and fuse.
It showed what to do, but not how to do it, so I dangled the lot inside the blower cover.
He said that the map absolutely had to be destroyed, never to turn up again after the job was done. :!:
It must mean that the map came from Citroën, just at the time that the problem became evident.
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Post by Mandrake » 03 Mar 2007, 19:46

Clogzz wrote:That’s the neatest possible job ! :D

Thanks.

After planning for the worst (I was armed with a large array of terminals, connectors, an inline fuse holder, several diagrams printed out from the forums etc) it actually turned out to be pretty straight forward after I traced all the plugs to confirm where they went and what their function was...

The hardest thing was getting the damn steering shroud back on again without breaking it. (I cheated and didn't remove the steering wheel, since I didn't want to mess with the airbag)

Actually now I check again, my mod is almost the same as RichardW's spreadsheet - except I cut the two wires from the brown plug completely (they aren't needed for anything else) and also his spreadsheet doesn't explicitly say WHICH ignition switch voltage to use on which wire for the relay coil. (There are 3 different ones counting the one that burns out, I used the one that is ignition+starter)

I should mention too for readers that the relay is a heavy duty 40 amp automotive type with 12v coil. (It draws only 200ma coil current)
on a car that was only 8 when I bought it

Did mine in 1998 when the car was only 3 years old with about 40,000 km up.

Yikes, looks like we'll be doing the same mod to Dad's car next weekend then, as its a 1994! (And it does the intermitant fan speed control a lot more often than mine ever did)

I've already bet him a beer that someone else has already done a similar mod to the one I found in my car. (He reckons no) Looks like I have a free beer coming! :lol:

Regards,
Simon
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1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver

1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive