Xantia TD 5th Gear Crunch
Moderator: RichardW
Xantia TD 5th Gear Crunch
Guys,
Have just replaced my faithful 1993 Xantia SX TD of the past six years with a 1999 SX TD Estate, full history and just over 70K. No doubt a bit will be heard of it here as I sort through the niggles to get it A1 for a few years with us.
It has a very light crunch on changing up into 5th. No other gears are affected up or down and the clutch seems to free OK with a feel of one that will last at least another 20K-30K at least. By very careful change timing you can almost make it silent.
I've always had 100% reliability from Xantia transmissions myself but have heard of 5th gear selector issues due to running with low oil.
Tomorrow I will drain and re-fill the box but I wondered if anyone has actually had the end housing off and worked on the 5th gear while the gearbox is in the car?
Have searched the net for any info/diagrams/photos with no success.
Thanks,
David
Have just replaced my faithful 1993 Xantia SX TD of the past six years with a 1999 SX TD Estate, full history and just over 70K. No doubt a bit will be heard of it here as I sort through the niggles to get it A1 for a few years with us.
It has a very light crunch on changing up into 5th. No other gears are affected up or down and the clutch seems to free OK with a feel of one that will last at least another 20K-30K at least. By very careful change timing you can almost make it silent.
I've always had 100% reliability from Xantia transmissions myself but have heard of 5th gear selector issues due to running with low oil.
Tomorrow I will drain and re-fill the box but I wondered if anyone has actually had the end housing off and worked on the 5th gear while the gearbox is in the car?
Have searched the net for any info/diagrams/photos with no success.
Thanks,
David
You are doing the best you can already :
changing the g/b oil & checking the g/b oil level.
next check is for a proper clutch release, i.e. pedal cable auto adjusting and cable condition. This has a very severe influence on crunchy gearshifts. Note that the release point should be pretty accurately at half pedal travel. If not that could be a pointer to cable trouble.
Last call is to try a can of miracle oil. The best (and proven) you can get is a tephlone product, which contains both large & small tephlone particles. And yes it does in fact works miracles on a touchy gearbox, despite the fact that the syncro rings relies on friction
changing the g/b oil & checking the g/b oil level.
next check is for a proper clutch release, i.e. pedal cable auto adjusting and cable condition. This has a very severe influence on crunchy gearshifts. Note that the release point should be pretty accurately at half pedal travel. If not that could be a pointer to cable trouble.
Last call is to try a can of miracle oil. The best (and proven) you can get is a tephlone product, which contains both large & small tephlone particles. And yes it does in fact works miracles on a touchy gearbox, despite the fact that the syncro rings relies on friction
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Thanks guys.
Yes it does sound like a worn syncro Peter but I have an open mind. I'll drain off the transmission oil into a clean container to see if that gives any clues.
I agree I will think hard about a clutch issue Anders. In theory the lower gears should be more affected but weird symptoms do appear.
If I have to consider a clutch change I think I'd put in a known good used box at the same time. It's enough of a job on the Xantia without doing it all again to change the gearbox on a second attempt.
David
Yes it does sound like a worn syncro Peter but I have an open mind. I'll drain off the transmission oil into a clean container to see if that gives any clues.
I agree I will think hard about a clutch issue Anders. In theory the lower gears should be more affected but weird symptoms do appear.
If I have to consider a clutch change I think I'd put in a known good used box at the same time. It's enough of a job on the Xantia without doing it all again to change the gearbox on a second attempt.
David
- uhn113x
- Posts: 1161
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- My Cars: 1981 Dyane - on road all year round.
1982 GSA Pallas - on road April - September.
1997 ZX 1.9D Dimension. - x 1
I did have a BX with the same problem - worn synchro on 5th.
Never did anything about it, as if you double-declutch properly, the synchro is not used, and you get a clean change.
The theory is that if people tend to use 5th at lower speeds (say 40mph) 5th does not get enough lubrication because the 5th pinions are out in a separate compartment. So, the cones wear.
I'd change the oil, and leave it as is. I have heard of an additive called "Lucasfilm" that may be of use - do a google.
Never did anything about it, as if you double-declutch properly, the synchro is not used, and you get a clean change.
The theory is that if people tend to use 5th at lower speeds (say 40mph) 5th does not get enough lubrication because the 5th pinions are out in a separate compartment. So, the cones wear.
I'd change the oil, and leave it as is. I have heard of an additive called "Lucasfilm" that may be of use - do a google.
Mike in West Yorks
1982 GSA Pallas
1982 Dyane
1997 ZX Dimension
1982 GSA Pallas
1982 Dyane
1997 ZX Dimension
Thanks guys. I'm doing the oil change as part of a major service tomorrow. It has to be tried but I don't hold out too much hope. Also will give the clutch cable a look, don't know if it is a manual or auto adjusting yet.
Funny thing though.... today I put in more mixed use miles on this car than I had previously since purchasing the other day.... and I find now and again gearchanges into third crunch too. I'd not noticed that before.
Appreciate the "make the best of it" type comments but this car is a planned keeper for quite a few years. It is the colour, age, engine, trim, and spec I've been looking for since last year. So the next few weeks/months will see everything done to get it A1.... whatever it takes.
I'll report more tomorrow with the new oil in.
David
Funny thing though.... today I put in more mixed use miles on this car than I had previously since purchasing the other day.... and I find now and again gearchanges into third crunch too. I'd not noticed that before.
Appreciate the "make the best of it" type comments but this car is a planned keeper for quite a few years. It is the colour, age, engine, trim, and spec I've been looking for since last year. So the next few weeks/months will see everything done to get it A1.... whatever it takes.
I'll report more tomorrow with the new oil in.
David
Its worth having a good look at the gear linkage itself - both for wear - and adjustment of the short cross links at the box end to make sure the various links are doing their jobs at the right time.
Its also surprising the difference a bit of lubrication will make as well - worked wonders on our ZX when I did it. I used aerosol spray grease to get at the bearing in the gear lever itself and a couple of other joints - handy for getting the stuff in from underneath without getting more oil on your arm!
If 3rd is playing up as well its unlikely to be the synchro mechanism. I'd have expected that on 5th to outlast the rest as it gets less use and doesn't have to work as hard as the mechanism on on second.
Its also surprising the difference a bit of lubrication will make as well - worked wonders on our ZX when I did it. I used aerosol spray grease to get at the bearing in the gear lever itself and a couple of other joints - handy for getting the stuff in from underneath without getting more oil on your arm!
If 3rd is playing up as well its unlikely to be the synchro mechanism. I'd have expected that on 5th to outlast the rest as it gets less use and doesn't have to work as hard as the mechanism on on second.
jeremy
- uhn113x
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: 06 Jan 2004, 22:06
- Location: Near Leeds, United Kingdom
- My Cars: 1981 Dyane - on road all year round.
1982 GSA Pallas - on road April - September.
1997 ZX 1.9D Dimension. - x 1
David did say it was a crunch, and that it was only fifth, so it's gotta be in the box, not the linkage. Lubricating the linkage is a good ideam though.
The wear is probably due to marginal lubrication, like I said, but it might have been a fault like a broken spring in the synchro hub rather than actual wear?
The wear is probably due to marginal lubrication, like I said, but it might have been a fault like a broken spring in the synchro hub rather than actual wear?
Mike in West Yorks
1982 GSA Pallas
1982 Dyane
1997 ZX Dimension
1982 GSA Pallas
1982 Dyane
1997 ZX Dimension
Oh well the transmission oil change made no difference. Lubricated all the gear links at the same time too. No nasties seen in the drained oil.
Even more mileage under its wheels today in mixed conditions showed up that the fault is definately more general that just 5th. 5th is the worse but I experienced the very occasional crunch in 3rd and 4th as well today.
I am prepared for replacing the transmission but still have a niggling doubt about a weird clutch fault causing it not to free at odd times.
David
Even more mileage under its wheels today in mixed conditions showed up that the fault is definately more general that just 5th. 5th is the worse but I experienced the very occasional crunch in 3rd and 4th as well today.
I am prepared for replacing the transmission but still have a niggling doubt about a weird clutch fault causing it not to free at odd times.
David
The gearbox in my 2000 W Xantia was knackered although I found out not long after I had bought it. It had only done 54000 but was noisy.David W wrote:Oh well the transmission oil change made no difference. Lubricated all the gear links at the same time too. No nasties seen in the drained oil.
Even more mileage under its wheels today in mixed conditions showed up that the fault is definately more general that just 5th. 5th is the worse but I experienced the very occasional crunch in 3rd and 4th as well today.
I am prepared for replacing the transmission but still have a niggling doubt about a weird clutch fault causing it not to free at odd times.
David
I replaced it with a 90 BHP HDI one from a 306, wow what a difference motorway cruising is now!! Your Estate might struggle a bit with the extra weight?
Anyway if you don't like the idea of the one I have for sale, you could always think about the other option.
Regards
Howie
2006 Fiat Idea Dynamic 1.3 Multijet
2010 Renault Laguna Dynamique tom tom 2.0 DCI 130
C5 VTR 2l 8v HDI Estate 112000 miles gone
Kia Rio 2007 1.5 CRDI 62,000 miles gone
2001 Dodge Durango 4.7 V8 170,000 miles gone
1999 Ford Crown Victoria 4.6 V8 151,000 miles gone
2006 Fiat Idea Dynamic 1.3 Multijet
2010 Renault Laguna Dynamique tom tom 2.0 DCI 130
C5 VTR 2l 8v HDI Estate 112000 miles gone
Kia Rio 2007 1.5 CRDI 62,000 miles gone
2001 Dodge Durango 4.7 V8 170,000 miles gone
1999 Ford Crown Victoria 4.6 V8 151,000 miles gone
- Xaccers
- Posts: 7654
- Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
- Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
- My Cars:
- x 184
How much hassle is it to swap a gearbox?
Synchomesh on mine for 3rd has taken a beating.
Synchomesh on mine for 3rd has taken a beating.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool
Xac,
It depends how much car work you do yourself really.
There is loads to strip away before you are ready to take it off. You need a good set of tools. Ideally an engine lift is needed to support the box. Can be done with mates and/or a jack at a push. Getting it back on and aligned is far easier with a lift.
I have the full procedure written (with images) as a Word document if you want a copy.
David
It depends how much car work you do yourself really.
There is loads to strip away before you are ready to take it off. You need a good set of tools. Ideally an engine lift is needed to support the box. Can be done with mates and/or a jack at a push. Getting it back on and aligned is far easier with a lift.
I have the full procedure written (with images) as a Word document if you want a copy.
David
2009 C5 HDi VTR+Nav Tourer
2006 C3 HDi Desire
2006 C3 HDi Desire
- Xaccers
- Posts: 7654
- Joined: 07 Feb 2007, 23:46
- Location: Milling around Milton Keynes
- My Cars:
- x 184
That would be great, will PM my email addy.
The car came with 1 year warrenty and syncromesh is listed, but it says something about a £250 limit, so will call them when I get a chance and see if it can be done under warrenty, til then I'll just double d.
The car came with 1 year warrenty and syncromesh is listed, but it says something about a £250 limit, so will call them when I get a chance and see if it can be done under warrenty, til then I'll just double d.
1.9TD+ SX Xantia Estate (Cassy) running on 100% veg
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool
1.9TD SX Xantia Hatchback (Jenny) running on 100% veg for sale
Laguna II 2.0dCi Privilege (Monty)
DIY sphere tool
- uhn113x
- Posts: 1161
- Joined: 06 Jan 2004, 22:06
- Location: Near Leeds, United Kingdom
- My Cars: 1981 Dyane - on road all year round.
1982 GSA Pallas - on road April - September.
1997 ZX 1.9D Dimension. - x 1
May be a slightly different kettle of fish, then, or maybe not.
If it goes into reverse OK sans crunch, the clutch is fine, but if you are taking the GB off, you can make sure it is OK and there is enough meat on the driven plate.
It is looking like a gearbox swap may be needed ...
If it goes into reverse OK sans crunch, the clutch is fine, but if you are taking the GB off, you can make sure it is OK and there is enough meat on the driven plate.
It is looking like a gearbox swap may be needed ...
David W wrote:Oh well the transmission oil change made no difference. Lubricated all the gear links at the same time too. No nasties seen in the drained oil.
Even more mileage under its wheels today in mixed conditions showed up that the fault is definately more general that just 5th. 5th is the worse but I experienced the very occasional crunch in 3rd and 4th as well today.
I am prepared for replacing the transmission but still have a niggling doubt about a weird clutch fault causing it not to free at odd times.
David
Mike in West Yorks
1982 GSA Pallas
1982 Dyane
1997 ZX Dimension
1982 GSA Pallas
1982 Dyane
1997 ZX Dimension