Leaking Leak-off pipes.

pantherd90 · Post by **pantherd90** » 19 Jan 2007, 16:53

Noticed on three recent journeys that with the air vents on my 1.9td (1993) Xantia is letting off a smell similar to burning gloss paint, which logically means some kind of oil..

Flipped open the bonnet and found that at least one of the leak-off pipes (according to the Haynes manual) between the injectors is badly damaged and the engine block is covered in what I assume is diesel.

How do I go about replacing these, do I need a brand specific type of pipe or will any "leak-off" pipe do. E.g. Click
or Click
I assume you just pull them off and put new piping onto the nipples on the injectors.

I've had some trouble starting recently (flat battery, smokey starts) is it possible this was down to the leak-off pipe(s)? What do they actually do and when are they used?

rory_perrett · Post by **rory_perrett** » 19 Jan 2007, 17:27

Leak off pipes allow excess diesel to return to the tank from the injectors. It is available from GSF sold by the metre. Just cut to length. Removing the old ones when they have gone hard can be a problem. Theoretically they just pull off, in reality.........

Rory

Post by **Peter.N.** » 19 Jan 2007, 18:27

If you have a Bosch pump laeky leak offs can allow ait to enter the fuel system which could be responsible for poor starting, or it could be the glow plugs. If it has a Lucas/CAV/Rotodiesel pump these dont usually give this problem.

pantherd90 · Post by **pantherd90** » 19 Jan 2007, 21:22

I hope it's the leak off pipes that are responsible for the poor starts, I thought about changing the glow plugs myself but they look a total nightmare to be honest.. Difficult to access without removing parts that I don't know what to do with.

Post by **Peter.N.** » 19 Jan 2007, 22:38

You can test the glowplugs in situ, but it still involves disconnecting the leads. You can check if the relay circuit is working by connecting a meter from any glowplug connection to earth, it should read 11 - 12 volts when the ignition switch is in the glow plug on position. To check the plugs individually, disconnect the leads and measure the resistance to earth, it should about 1 ohm on each plug, any with a very much higher reading or none at all are u/s. Changing the glow plugs is difficult but not impossible, you need lots of patience and a good selection of spanners. Allow yourself a couple of hours, or do one at a time, starting with the easiest, that will give you confidence.

np · Post by np » 19 Jan 2007, 22:41

pantherd90 wrote:I hope it's the leak off pipes that are responsible for the poor starts, I thought about changing the glow plugs myself but they look a total nightmare to be honest.. Difficult to access without removing parts that I don't know what to do with.

Any where near Bristol??I dont like to bragg,but i can change the plugs in about an hour or so,removing all the bits,& with all my bent

spanners.

pantherd90 · Post by **pantherd90** » 20 Jan 2007, 12:58

Peter.N. wrote:You can test the glowplugs in situ, but it still involves disconnecting the leads. You can check if the relay circuit is working by connecting a meter from any glowplug connection to earth, it should read 11 - 12 volts when the ignition switch is in the glow plug on position. To check the plugs individually, disconnect the leads and measure the resistance to earth, it should about 1 ohm on each plug, any with a very much higher reading or none at all are u/s. Changing the glow plugs is difficult but not impossible, you need lots of patience and a good selection of spanners. Allow yourself a couple of hours, or do one at a time, starting with the easiest, that will give you confidence.

I can hear the relay clicking on and off at start in a reasonable time.

When I'm doing the leak off pipes (set are on the way) I may give testing the glow plugs a go. I know that at least one was changed in a service at some point, but I have a suspicion not all of them.

My main fear is that in loosening the nuts that secure the wires to the plugs I'll drop either a spanner and/or a nut, resulting in much struggling around in the engine bay to find it again..

That and the plug behind the fuel pump is near inaccessible anyway..

And sadly I don't live near Bristol, I envy you and your nimble hands if you can change them so quick.

I'll take a look and possibly a photo or two of it all.

Update:

Ok working from passenger side to drivers I've had a look and it is still pretty intimidating. One glow plug is positioned behind what I believe to be the fuel filter, there are two pipes denying easy access, the larger of which runs from the air distributor housing/pipe to the oil dipstick, the other one runs from the fuel filter housing.

The next is relatively easy to access one or two bits of small pipe in the vicinity and thats it. Though thanks to the broken leak-off pipe the entire area is coated in derv.

The next is overshadowed by two huge pipes that run on top of one another from the front of the engine bay (in front of radiator, intercooler?) to the rear. Are these just air flow pipes? Or do they contain something? They're very large and I think would require removing to gain access. I can see one bit is bolted onto the engine bay, and the pipes are attached to that. The pipes themselves have metal ties round each end, that are fairly easily accessible and look like a simple screwdriver job.

The final one is behind the fuel pump (I think, large metal part with lots of metal/fuel pipes coming off it and the accelerator cable/adjuster on the top). I assume glow plugs can only be a few cms or about an inch long, since if they aren't I can't see how there is enough room to pull the one behind the fuel pump out.

I note that the nuts on top of 3 of the plugs (the one behind the fuel pump, the filter and under the large black pipes) have shiny brass like nuts on the top of them. And the most accessible one has a dull grey nut on it, this makes me suspect only the one with the dull grey nut on it has been changed..

np · Post by np » 21 Jan 2007, 21:45

The only 2 plugs that cause me trouble are the 2 on the left,the 1 behind the fuel pump & the 1 next to it.I remove the intercooler pipes.1 is easy,the other pipe that goes behind the engine & down connects to the turbo.Its held in by 3 12mm bolts.Its very difficult to remove the first time.I use a 1/2" drive socket set with about 12 inches of extention pieces on it,& a flexy joint at the top.I also have a strong magnet that i put on the sockets.I also have a small telescopic magnet,like a car arieal,which is good for catching the small nuts on the top of the plugs.
I also remove the main fuel pipe banjo on the fuel pump.Once you do them a few times,& bend a few old spanners,they really are quite easy to do.It took me ages the first time,but i can now do them in an hour or 2 with some smoke breaks!

JT · Post by JT » 22 Jan 2007, 13:57

np's description of changing the glow plugs is exactly right.
Also wrap some masking tape around the small nuts on the plugs and extend a piece of tape from this for about six inches. I found this helpful when trying to put the nuts back on. You can use the tape to drop the nut back on to the plug!!
The poor start sounds more like the leak off pipes.
I had the same problem on a '97 Xantia, changed the pipes, problem solved!!

pantherd90 · Post by **pantherd90** » 23 Jan 2007, 17:04

Change of pipes was very easy and the replacements should last the car out now, so that's one less thing to worry about. Did the Citaerobics, oil check, and tyre pressure top up while I was at it. Start up was remarkably quick and smoke free despite the cold, so possibly (hopefully) the glow plugs don't need changing. I'll keep an eye out for the dreaded clouds of white smoke on cold mornings and for any more diesel spills, but all being well the car is back to being its mechanically reliable self.

pantherd90 · Post by **pantherd90** » 25 Jan 2007, 12:31

Spoke too soon, drivers side door speaker has failed, the rubber rim being totally decayed. According to search on the forums Citroen Xantia uses 17cm speakers but I measure them as 16cm, or 6.5 inches. They're 20watt RMS Autosoniks, 1993 date on em.

What would you recommend for replacement, not looking for high quality, after all the drivers side dashboard speaker is also dodgy (distorted crackly sound, despite it being from another Xantia).

caveman_si · Post by **caveman_si** » 28 Jan 2007, 22:42

np wrote:
pantherd90 wrote:I hope it's the leak off pipes that are responsible for the poor starts, I thought about changing the glow plugs myself but they look a total nightmare to be honest.. Difficult to access without removing parts that I don't know what to do with.
Any where near Bristol??I dont like to bragg,but i can change the plugs in about an hour or so,removing all the bits,& with all my bent spanners.

Bit of bold statement there NP saying things like that will soon get you a line of cars outside your house with people brandishing glowplugs at you!!!

pantherd90 · Post by **pantherd90** » 31 Jan 2007, 21:33

Got one replacement door speaker from another Xantia so it'll plug straight in. Decided for £3.50 I might as well replace both the dashboard tweeters, I'll try swapping the cables on the dodgy tweeter currently in there to see if it's just connected incorrectly, but I suspect the distortion is down to some hairline cracks in the bottom of it.

The balanced drive Clarion tweeters I'm looking to fit will either require mounting on the dashboard, or cut outs from the current speaker grills so they can sit on those as the standard tweeters seem to be mounted using a custom system. Still shouldn't be a problem but I'm wondering whether I should fit Bass Blockers? The tweeters are rated to 220watts so shouldn't blow, but is there a possibility of distortion if I just put them in as a direct replacement to the current tweeters?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 01 Feb 2007, 20:23

I'd certainly fit a bass blocker to the tweeters. A simple series connected (in-line) 10µF (microfarad) Bipolar electrolytic capacitor should do perfect.
Its not the power (which is the average music power) of 220W that has to be accounted for, but rather a near-DC (constant voltage) level from the bass component.
This may fuse the tweeter coil.

It is however rather common these days that the capacitor may already be fitted in the speaker wiring.