30,000 mile ATF change interva on ZF auto boxes.............

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Timaru
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30,000 mile ATF change interva on ZF auto boxes.............

Post by Timaru »

.........as fitted to the V6 and 2.2 Hdi.

I have just read this at www.honestjohn.co.uk

"ATF of ZF autoboxes MUST be changed every 30,000 miles."

I thought these units were sealed for life!

Anybody else come across this?
alan s
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Post by alan s »

I supposed it depends what "life" you expect from the auto transmission.
After 30K you'll find the ATF is looking worse for wear but just as important, be certain you use the correct ATF in it when you change it. There's a lot of Urban Myths floating around along the lines of Dex111 is an upgrade of Dex11 (which it isn't) and incorrect fluid can do as much if not more damage than old contaminated stuff.
The economics of the oil change exercise is this; ATF = A$15 for 2.5 litres.
Transmission overhaul approximately ........A$4500 with 12 months warranty.

You choose. :wink:


Alan S
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Timaru
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Post by Timaru »

A very good answer Alan but there are no filler/drainage points or even a dip stick on the box.

From what I can gather from "the net" to drain the box it has to be separated from the engine and Gawd only knows how you re fill it!
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Post by alan s »

It seems there's a few "sealed for life" boxes around, but I also keep hearing stories of people who have done a drain & refill, several Peugeot owners over here have been in the same position and I would imagine they run the same transmissions.
You don't specify what car you have but I would presume a Xantia would that be correct?
They were sold in limited numbers in both the V6 and diesel out here, but if you can clarify the model, I'll ask questions and see if I can come up with something.


Alan S
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She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
Timaru
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Post by Timaru »

Hi Alan - It's a C5 2.2 Hdi Exclusive estate.

Many thanks, I've seen the cost of replacing the auto-box and the thought of it going bang has got my buttock cheeks clenched!
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Post by jgra1 »

I follow this with interest....


V6 Xant on 74999 miles ! !
alan s
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Post by alan s »

So far I've only had one response which was a bit off topic, but I'll post it anyway as it may be some help in getting a resolution in the long term as Saabs also wear ZF transmissions. :wink:
It seems that some manufacturers will do silly things like that from time to time. Why I don't know because all it seems to acheive is pissed off mechanics, annoyed customers and all those stories you hear all the time that turn into myths/rumours. The S**b 9000, manual g/b I had didn't have a drain plug from factory and was claimed filled for life. They did have a dipstick and filler plug though for topping up. I do know of a couple of guys who drilled and tapped a section of the box to make a plug when they did engine rebuilds. Maybe if they have to remove the box he could look into having a plug tapped? The S**b guys said it could be done with the box in the car witha couple of accurate measurements, after they had worked out where they put theirs. Later 9000 gearboxes had drain plugs mind you, it was just a certain run that didn't????
Any more come in, I'll post accordingly.


Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
Stempy
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Post by Stempy »

Well I've replaced the fluid in my V6 autobox and will be doing it again next service. Mine has a ZF box which as you say is supposed to be sealed for life, but it's quite straight forward to replace. Theres a drain plug on the bottom similar to the engine sump plug and to refill you have to remove the breather which is under the airfilter. There is another plug at the back of the box which you remove to set the level.
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alan s
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Post by alan s »

Do these run the same box as the C5 Stempy?

It seems like there's almost a different box for almost every model in every range, even the fluid is a different variety from model to model, but if there's any similarity, good onya, we might solve the riddle.

Just pulled this off an Oil Company website for a C5 2.2HDi:

Auto transmission oil ATF BMV
Auto transmission capacity 3.0/5.3

For a Xantia V6:


rr ZF 4HP and 5HP 4/5 speed autos specifying LT71141, MB236.11/MB236.10 or LA2634 use ATF BMV !. 6 speed autos use ATF DX-VI all 7 speed autos refer to dealer.

So the oils look the same to me; getting closer to an answer.



Alan S
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Timaru
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Post by Timaru »

Hi Alan, and others.

The box is the ZF 4HP20 - hope this helps.

Many thanks for your input.
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Post by Stempy »

I think the C5's run the AL4 box as do the late 2.0 petrol Xantia autos.

Mines got a later ZF 4hp20 without the dipstick, the earlier ones had a dipstick right at the front. Later ones have a level plug at the back.
It infuriates me to be wrong when I know I'm right

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Post by andmcit »

Expert opinion views the ZF boxes on Citroens as not being worth diddly!!
Every one I've owned or seen friends running has given up [usually at or
around 120k miles] and the autobox specialist I've dealt with actually views
high mileage one's as being on borrowed time every mile over this figure.

He goes as far as saying that dropping fluid on a newly purchased car with
uncertain service history will cause more trouble than it's worth; any silting
will be kicked up and effectively flushed by the thinner new oil into the
critical hydraulic galleries of the box!!

xantiae and Xm's are prone in my experience though I've no idea about
newer models including the auto adaptive ones. No coincidence though that
two Exclusive S2 cars have been auctioned with failed boxes on ebay in the
last two days...

Andrew
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Post by Timaru »

Stempy wrote:I think the C5's run the AL4 box as do the late 2.0 petrol Xantia autos.

Mines got a later ZF 4hp20 without the dipstick, the earlier ones had a dipstick right at the front. Later ones have a level plug at the back.
Hi Stempy - The 2.2 Hdi and the V6 run the ZF box, all the others have the AL4.
alan s
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Post by alan s »

andmcit wrote:Expert opinion views the ZF boxes on Citroens as not being worth diddly!!
Every one I've owned or seen friends running has given up [usually at or
around 120k miles] and the autobox specialist I've dealt with actually views
high mileage one's as being on borrowed time every mile over this figure.

He goes as far as saying that dropping fluid on a newly purchased car with
uncertain service history will cause more trouble than it's worth; any silting
will be kicked up and effectively flushed by the thinner new oil into the
critical hydraulic galleries of the box!!

xantiae and Xm's are prone in my experience though I've no idea about
newer models including the auto adaptive ones. No coincidence though that
two Exclusive S2 cars have been auctioned with failed boxes on ebay in the
last two days...

Andrew
THe long term problems with ZF boxes in particular the 4hp20 and the 4hp14 has been fluid.
The boxes have in them an extremely powerful magnet that the fluid passes over and it collects metal finings that are ferro based that may be floating around in the box. The rest passes through a filter block with a mesh around the size of that in an LHM tank which is capable of catching one micron, hence the chances of contamination is greatly reduced and usually is nothing more than a combination of what is effectively scum and old oil that floats around in there.
Where the problems have arisn has been that for reasons unknown, there has been this urban myth that all these boxes are to be topped up/filled using the Dexron series of oils which is stipulated in the ZF manual NOT to be used. They then add to the problems by then following another urban myth that Dex3 is an upgrade of Dex2 which is totally erroneous; they are about as similar as engine oil is to coolant with totally different operating characteristics including operating temps, friction modifiers etc, as a result, any BX that was supposed to be run on D2 but has had D3 in it at one of its routine services will usually drop dead around 120/150,000 klms. Xantias with this transmission in it will do the same. It wasn't until I started asking embarrassing questions a couple of years ago that this anomoly came to light, after which several Oil companies out here quietly and without any public mention, altered their websites in fear of the potential barrage of lawsuits that looked like heading their way for incorrect recommendations. Some even covered their tracks by claiming they never had that info on their websites, but a series of threads on forums showed that not to be true. This is why now, most have on the bottle advising against using in European automatics.
One thing that came out during the D2/3 debate was owners and mechanics who worked on Beemers, Mercs and Saabs all expressed amazement at how it was common for their cars to go 500,000 klms + with nothing more than small oil leaks and all claimed the boxes to be bulletproof, yet Cits and Pugs seemed limited to the mileages I've quoted above. The common response from the specialists on the other breeds was "we weren't stupid enough to put Dex111 in our boxes" and therein lies the reason. Cits that have run the correct fluid also have seen 1/2 millin klms out.
There was a manual for the ZF 4HP20 on the net a while back but I think it was on a short term "download" site, but if I can find it, I'll post the link.
The fluid it uses carries an "Esso" part number and if I remember correctly is a yellow colour and not a red.

from the Xantia service manual:

Transmission capacity 7.7 - 8.3 litres
Draining capacity between 2.7 and 3 litres
Exclusive oil ESSO LT 71141
Draining interval lubricated for life
Top-up interval 60 000 km
Transmission lubrication pressurised
Final drive lubrication oil splash
Weight 88 kg with oil and electronics
Torque capacity 330 mN at 3500 rpm

The manual shows a dipstick (carefully hidden) and a drain plug very dicreetly hidden unerneath.

Constant reference is made of it being a "sealed for life" operation, but it also goes into detail talking about what is needed to change and top up the oil, so I do believe the dipstick and drain are there if only you know where to look.
Filling/topping up is achieved by filling through the dipstick hole (very much like the old CX did.


Alan S
RIP Sept 19th 2008.

She said "Put the cat out" She didn't mention it was on fire!!
Stempy
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Joined: 26 Feb 2004, 23:21
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Still missing the Xantia V6
Not missing the AX
Contact:

Post by Stempy »

PM me your email and I'll send you all the gearbox info I have, several pdf's and a couple of word docs, you'd better have broadband though as it amounts to about 20megs of files.
It infuriates me to be wrong when I know I'm right

Lexia ponce

http://perception.dyndns.biz/~avengineering/index.htm
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