Sphere Types

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
icedfusion
Posts: 6
Joined: 12 Nov 2006, 22:55
Location:
My Cars:

Sphere Types

Post by icedfusion »

The suspension on my 2000 Xantia 2.0HDI that i have just bought is rock solid at the rear. After reading much info on this forum I have determined that it is the spheres and so will give change these myself as my local dealer wants 94 pounds per sphere!!!!!

After talking to some people, I have been told that there are 2 types of sphere - a standard sphere and a deluxe sphere (softer ride), however after trying to search these forums I have not read anything that mentions different types of spheres, so my question is this:

Are there different types of spheres or should i just fit the spheres i can purchase from gsfcarparts.com?

Thanks

ice.
Stempy
Posts: 1626
Joined: 26 Feb 2004, 23:21
Location: Cloud Cuckooland
My Cars: C5 V6 Mk1 assainated by wife
Renault Kangoo 1.6 auto, tarted up and remapped
Still missing the Xantia V6
Not missing the AX
Contact:

Post by Stempy »

Never heard of a deluxe sphere before :?: The spheres from GSF are fine though. If you want a softer ride than standard you can experiment with different damping rates by using spheres from other models, but initially you'd be best off getting the recommended type. £90 does seem a bit steep to fit a sphere, but if you're going to do it yourself get the sphere removal tool as well. You should be able to get two spheres and the tool for £90! Also, don't forget the centre sphere if it's got one as this will adversely affect comfort if it's flat too.
It infuriates me to be wrong when I know I'm right

Lexia ponce

http://perception.dyndns.biz/~avengineering/index.htm
f00lzz
Posts: 795
Joined: 28 Mar 2006, 19:30
Location: Sutton Coldfield, West Midlands. UK
My Cars:

Post by f00lzz »

I believe that further investigation is required before splashing out on new spheres.. check that the 'plastic link' is still correctly connected at the height corrector (check previous threads) and that everything is lubricated and free to move.
It just seems strange that two spheres should need replacing on a year 2000 model... I could understand it if one had failed or an accumulator sphere needed changing
Ian
Account Ref: 6419

Current Cars
Nissan X-Trail SVE
Saab 2.2TiD
Merc E270 Estate

Past Citroens
2001 Xantia 3.0 Exclusive
1999 Xantia 1.9TD
1997 Xantia 3.0 Exclusive
1995 XM 3.0 Exclusive Estate
jeremy
Posts: 3959
Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
Location: Hampshire, UK
My Cars:
x 2

Post by jeremy »

If you sit in the boot with the engine running you can test the spheres etc.

Car drops - and rises to original position after 30 seconds or so - all OK. Does it without engine running - accumulator OK as well.

Car drops - but doesn't rise - spheres OK (not flat) - linkage not working.

Bruised backside - car not dropping at all - flat spheres.

Of course its possible that the linkage has stuck and the spheres are flat. - do one -test again and the result will then point to the other.
jeremy
icedfusion
Posts: 6
Joined: 12 Nov 2006, 22:55
Location:
My Cars:

Post by icedfusion »

Thanks for the pointers.

I have tried the sitting in the boot, well - since it came witha toe bar I stood on the toe bar - the suspension is almost rock solid (it compresses but not alot (its got my 19 stone frame jumping on it - im not fat - just very tall and stocky!! :D ). So I would guess that the spheres are fekked.

I have seen many 'sphere remover tools' but by far the best appears to be that home made device - the steel band tightened up with a screw - can these be bought?

Looks like an order to gsfcarparts is required!

thanks

ice.
andmcit
Posts: 4299
Joined: 03 Mar 2005, 17:59
Location: Swansea - South Wales
My Cars:
x 30

Post by andmcit »

What spec/trim is your HDi?

There are two different types of design for the front/rear spheres on this
model Xantia. The Exclusive top-of-the-range model has a system where
there are 4 corner spheres you can see and 2 central spheres, one buried
under the rear floor and 1 beside the end of the front radiator; then there's
the wider spread of model range covering the LX/SX/Temptation/Desire
which only have the corner spheres.

You WILL need to know which type your car uses as there is a fundamental
difference in what you'll get from GSF.

The main difference is the size of the orifice or jet diameter which has an
influence over the flow of hydraulic fluid in and out of the sphere; there's
also a difference in the actual volume/size of the whole sphere itself and
the pressure of the nitrogen bubble in the sphere.

The removal is far easier if you do get the pukka metal band tool as used
by Citroen dealers and your best source is either Pleaides or GSF - expect
to pay around 30quid or thereabouts. As an alternative there is the heavy
chain type of pipe wrench from MachineMart etc which will handle the
stresses if it's like a Motorcycle chain...

Andrew
slim123
Posts: 377
Joined: 20 Jul 2006, 22:49
Location:
My Cars:

Post by slim123 »

There is a lot of talk from a lot of "experts" on the subject of sphere types and pressures, but we all know that an expert is, (expert / ex- spurt) a DRIP UNDER PRESSURE !! (sorry not meant to offend anyone)

If you want my opinion and it is only an opinion!! Citroen designed the suspension system on your car, whilst it was in the design stages they would have spent thousands of pounds (or francs) working along with the design team to get the best ride for the weight of car, along with the optimum handling for safety.

As time goes by, the spheres loose pressure and the ride / handling deteriorate.

Now along comes dodgy dan the repair man and says "I can improve on that by putting some different type of spheres on, ok they aint the ones for the car, but they are so much better"

So he puts on a set of new improved super sphere, you collect the car and are suprised and pleased with the wonderfull ride of the car.

But, if he had put the correct spheres on you would have found the ride just as good, infact anything would have been an improvement on what you had got used too.

So you see why people go for different spheres and are pleased with the results, anything is better than knackered spheres, even the correct spheres!!!

My reasoning is that you are not realy going to improve on the Citroen design at the factory stages, so why bother trying.

Get yourself a decent set of spheres either Amtex from GSF or Citroen originals reconditioned from Pleiades, fit them and you should be pleased with the results.

Regards
Slim
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

Does the rear suspension rise and fall with the adjustment lever? if it doesnt the rear height corrector is probably at fault, broken plastic coupler as suggested and the suspension is probably against the bump stops. If it does the spheres will be at fault.
andmcit
Posts: 4299
Joined: 03 Mar 2005, 17:59
Location: Swansea - South Wales
My Cars:
x 30

Post by andmcit »

I agree 100% with you Slim!!

What some garages do for a lazy quick fix is meddle with the easy to reach
corner spheres (and fortunately these days, on the newer Cits, this means
the rear one's too - not like a Cx or Gs...). Now on an Xm or VSX Xantia the
whole damping softness is handled by the central spheres working alongside
the corner spheres which then cut out making the car taut and handle
properly when the system does it's thing in the twisties.

Now if you go and stuff "comfort" spheres on the corners and leave the
central spheres untouched flat, as they're now redundant you're relying
purely on the system then behaving like an earlier generation Bx or
whathaveyou. So then the question is why run a VSX or Xm hydractive
in the first place for the sake of having another two 30quid spheres...!? :lol:

As f00lzz says, there's more to the firm ride, than JUST flat spheres!
Height correctors and their linkages, poor contaminated fluid and air
leaks can give all sorts of mixed signals to the backside when hitting
that ubiquitous speedbump/pothole etc...

Andrew

Anyhow, at this point, we can hand the floor over to Simon for his precise
and thorough knowledge and explanations of Cit hydraulics =D> =D>
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

I have to agree with what Slim said too - most of the time Citroen know what they're doing, and they ARE one of the best designers of suspension systems in the world... (after all, no one else is mass producing a comparable system)

In my opinion (having driven quite a few different models of Citroen and owned a GS and a Xantia) a Hydractive 2 Xantia already has a very soft (perhaps even slightly too soft) springing/damping tuning in the soft mode, and I really really wouldn't want it to be any softer.

The problem with "comfort spheres" on the corners (which basically just have larger damping valve holes) is that while it makes the hard mode a bit softer and less harsh, it reduces the damping in the soft mode as well to the point where the soft mode is now underdamped and has a tendency to oscillate. (Yes I have tried it, only as a test)

I guess some people like that floaty not touching the ground feeling, but I don't. To me, steadiness (minimal pitching and oscillation, or good impulse response to the techies among you :lol: ) is just as important as softness over bumps.

If you go too soft in the damping the bump impacts may well be reduced, but now the body is constantly oscillating and in a state of dynamic instability over long distance road undulations, which I find just as annoying as impact bumps, perhaps more so.

(A characteristic some people would describe as giving them sea sickness - I don't get sea sick, but I don't like that ride characteristic all the same)

Any time I've been tempted to tweak the damping on a Citroen it's always been in the direction of increasing/firming the damping (by reducing the centre bypass hole slightly) to suit my preference of not having overshoot in the rebound characteristic.

The deterioration in ride as spheres age is so gradual at first that you can easily get caught out not realising thats the problem. As Slim says, just about any semi-decent new sphere will seem better than an old flat one!

Also the effects on ride of other mechanical problems cannot be overlooked. If the car is relatively soft to press down by hand but the ride seems "harsh" you're almost certainly looking at mechanical problems such as balljoints, bushes, arm bearings, etc or possibly air being sucked into the hydraulic system on the pump inlet, as any air/nitrogen bubbles between the hydraulic rams and the spheres can cause unusual harshness on broken surfaces. Intermitant Electrovalves in HA2 models is also a potential problem.

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
dnsey
Posts: 1538
Joined: 20 Oct 2004, 01:39
Location:
My Cars:
x 19

Post by dnsey »

Agreed re. care and investment in the original design - but Citroen did allow for owner preference by offering 'comfort' spheres as an option on new cars.
Peter.N.
Moderating Team
Posts: 11563
Joined: 02 Apr 2005, 16:11
Location: Charmouth,Dorset
My Cars: Currently:

C5 X7 VTR + Satnav Hdi estate Silver
C5 X7 VTR + Hdi Estate 2008 Red

In the past: 3, CX td Safaris and about 7, XM td estates. Lovely cars.
x 1199

Post by Peter.N. »

While I dont disagree about the time and money they have put into the development of the suspension ride/handling characteristics, they are catering for public demand and the general desire seems to be for cars which will corner fast in preference to 'ride nicely'. The cars of yesteryear generally had a much softer ride but 'rolled' round corners which just meant you couldn't corner as fast. I never lost control of a car, even in my teens, the days of Morris Oxfords and Vauxhaul Crestas, I must though admit to a few rear end shunts due to following to close and to fast, but I dont think stiffer suspension would have helped much. I had a Farina Oxford estate for some years and you hardly felt a thing through the suspension, admittedly it had cross ply tyres and I must grudgingly admit that radials have improved road holding no end, but I still personally prefer a comfortable ride and I am sure I'm not alone. There are only about half a dozen cars tested in Which? that were regarded as having a good ride, which I think bears out my conclusions.

(2.1 td XM estate riding on 'comfort spheres)
andmcit
Posts: 4299
Joined: 03 Mar 2005, 17:59
Location: Swansea - South Wales
My Cars:
x 30

Post by andmcit »

dnsey wrote:Agreed re. care and investment in the original design - but Citroen did allow for owner preference by offering 'comfort' spheres as an option on new cars.
Can't say I've ever heard that one before! :shock:
You'd be lucky if they even mention spheres in a bid not to
scare customers away!

Andrew
dnsey
Posts: 1538
Joined: 20 Oct 2004, 01:39
Location:
My Cars:
x 19

Post by dnsey »

Can't say I've ever heard that one before!
I'm not sure if they mentioned it in the sales brochures, or left it up to the dealer to ask the customer - "Sporty or luxury, Sir?". After all, there aren't many cars which have a choice of suspension characteristics (on the same model) from new, so it could be pitched as a distinct selling point!
jeremy
Posts: 3959
Joined: 20 Oct 2002, 16:00
Location: Hampshire, UK
My Cars:
x 2

Post by jeremy »

Peter

Did you realise your Oxford Estate was perfectly balanced front to rear? Exactly the same weight on each axle - which I'm sure contributed to the speed they could be hurled around at with some determination!
jeremy
Post Reply