OK following a desperate attempt to get my radio to remember stations I've found out a few things...
1) Even with a decent 12v line from the cigarette lighter it still forgets things, leading me to suspect I need a new radio.
2) My remote central locking still won't work, even with different receivers and senders
3) Someone has possibly attacked some of the cabling around the sunroof motor.
4) Someone has definitely attacked some of the cabling around the fusebox, cutting straight through a lot of the dash and then through at least one wire.
These discoveries have left me with more questions than answers...
Prior to me obtaining my 1993 Xantia LX TD in 2000, it was owned by two people, a gentleman I don't know who appears to have had it serviced regularly at main dealers and a relative who though himself an electrician (to be fair he was an MOD scientist) and who I believe to be responsible for some of the bodged electronics.
Anyway, the questions...
Firstly, does anybody know what voltages/readings the cable you connect to the infrared remote central locking should be providing? And does anyone have any idea why mine still fails to work, even though I've tried it using a working plip and receiver from a 1995 Xantia VSX.
Secondly, does anyone have any idea what cable might have been cut around the fusebox area. There is a very large hole cut into the dash that is covered when the fuse box door is closed (I originally thought it was like that when new as I never noticed it). When you look inside said hole you see rather a lot of unpainted metal and a grey cable (two wires stuck together) that has been cut and covered with some insulation tape...
I'm wondering if it's possible to remove the fusebox tray just enough to see what exactly that cut cable is connected to? If so, how? I'm guessing it's not that easy, or else there wouldn't be a large hole in my dashboard.
Finally, is it safe for me to buy a new radio, or am I going to be faced with another radio that has goldfish like memory?
Xantia Electrics
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Ross_K
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The problem with the radio losing its memory might not be down to the radio itself, especially if the fusebox wiring is as dodgy as you say. The radio does need a constant 12V, which it might not be receiving if something has been chopped at the fusebox.
Best sorting the wiring mess out before you worry about the radio, although if you have a multimeter you can whip the radio out and quickly test for the presence of the constant 12V feed on the ISO connector while you've got the ignition turned off.
If you search through my recent posts, you should find the one about the ISO connector pinouts
Best sorting the wiring mess out before you worry about the radio, although if you have a multimeter you can whip the radio out and quickly test for the presence of the constant 12V feed on the ISO connector while you've got the ignition turned off.
If you search through my recent posts, you should find the one about the ISO connector pinouts
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pantherd90
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Car electrics is dead simple.
You dont have strange analogue varying voltages on the wiring - unless you are messing around with engine sensor's wiring in the engine bay.
Rest of the stuff will be at either of 3 levels/states :
1) chassis earth potiential
2) +12V battery voltage
3) floating - i.e. disrupted, not connected to anything
that is true for your plip receiver as well - as any low voltage receiver signals is held within the PCB. All the wiring from the plip circuit to CL unit and lock motors will be in either of the 3 states above.
If any wire tested does not apply - you have a faulty wire/circuit. Its that simple.
Now -
When you test for a 12V or a chassis connection - then please do it with common sense.
What do I mean by that ?
I mean : using a standard probe tip test lamp or a multimeter only requires a VERY small current to flow thru the wiring - meaning a weak, corroded wiring will still test good this way. But you will never find out if the wiring is corroded or otherwise weak - causing a malfunction.
Instead use a homemade testlamp that requires some beefy current thru the wirings to make the lamp lite up.
For the small gauge controlling wires all over - use a 10W rear lamp bulb. For the heavier gauge wiring use at least a 21W blinkers or brakes bulb.
A weak wiring will instantly show by the bulb not liting up as it should.
All the plip and CL wiring should be "live" with no key in ignition switch. Same goes on the interior lighting. If you need a +12V live test voltage (to test out a chassis connection) then use the interior lights bulb holders. These are fuse proteced - so you dont burn out any circuits or your test wiring while fumbling around.
If you are tracing a fused circuit that keeps burning its fuse - then replace the fuse with a bulb - using some wiring and a couple of spade connectors. A hefty bulb should be used such you dont get the bulb lite up on any small current. Use a headlamp bulb. Once the circuit does its nasty shortcircuiting - the bulb will lite up - and nothing else happens. You dont have to keep replacing fuses.
The only way a radio can be damaged is connecting it wrong - i.e. reversing the polarity. Dont think a modern radio will bother - it will just not function. Maybe an internal hidden fuse will blow to protect against repeated connection faults.
My last friendly advice :
You dont go replace fuses with nails, wires, silver paper etc - or higher rated fuses. If a fuse burns its caused by an error in its circuit. A fuse does not suddenly require to be a higher current rating.
The fuse is there to protect against fire - or burned out wiring. I.e. it can be an costly affair not using the correct fuse rating.
Just like your home appliance fuseboard.
You dont have strange analogue varying voltages on the wiring - unless you are messing around with engine sensor's wiring in the engine bay.
Rest of the stuff will be at either of 3 levels/states :
1) chassis earth potiential
2) +12V battery voltage
3) floating - i.e. disrupted, not connected to anything
that is true for your plip receiver as well - as any low voltage receiver signals is held within the PCB. All the wiring from the plip circuit to CL unit and lock motors will be in either of the 3 states above.
If any wire tested does not apply - you have a faulty wire/circuit. Its that simple.
Now -
When you test for a 12V or a chassis connection - then please do it with common sense.
What do I mean by that ?
I mean : using a standard probe tip test lamp or a multimeter only requires a VERY small current to flow thru the wiring - meaning a weak, corroded wiring will still test good this way. But you will never find out if the wiring is corroded or otherwise weak - causing a malfunction.
Instead use a homemade testlamp that requires some beefy current thru the wirings to make the lamp lite up.
For the small gauge controlling wires all over - use a 10W rear lamp bulb. For the heavier gauge wiring use at least a 21W blinkers or brakes bulb.
A weak wiring will instantly show by the bulb not liting up as it should.
All the plip and CL wiring should be "live" with no key in ignition switch. Same goes on the interior lighting. If you need a +12V live test voltage (to test out a chassis connection) then use the interior lights bulb holders. These are fuse proteced - so you dont burn out any circuits or your test wiring while fumbling around.
If you are tracing a fused circuit that keeps burning its fuse - then replace the fuse with a bulb - using some wiring and a couple of spade connectors. A hefty bulb should be used such you dont get the bulb lite up on any small current. Use a headlamp bulb. Once the circuit does its nasty shortcircuiting - the bulb will lite up - and nothing else happens. You dont have to keep replacing fuses.
The only way a radio can be damaged is connecting it wrong - i.e. reversing the polarity. Dont think a modern radio will bother - it will just not function. Maybe an internal hidden fuse will blow to protect against repeated connection faults.
My last friendly advice :
You dont go replace fuses with nails, wires, silver paper etc - or higher rated fuses. If a fuse burns its caused by an error in its circuit. A fuse does not suddenly require to be a higher current rating.
The fuse is there to protect against fire - or burned out wiring. I.e. it can be an costly affair not using the correct fuse rating.
Just like your home appliance fuseboard.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
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pantherd90
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Ok so when testing the wires to my CL receiver unit with a voltmeter I should receive either 12V or nothing. And at least one of the wires in must be 12v?
I'm no electrician but I think I understand what your saying.. In essence a simple voltage test with a multimeter won't get the entire story. There could be a very low current which would lead to malfunctions/lack of function just the same. And such a low current would not be picked up when purely testing voltage. Problem is I rather stupidly (and this shows I'm no electrician) tested the amp output from the 12v socket with my multimeter.
...
Suffice to say I'm now searching for a very rare 10A multimeter fuse.
Your homemade lamp tester sounds interesting, but how would I make such a thing. I have some spare xantia bulbs and some fairly thick cabling, but judging by some of my past DIY exercises, a home tester wouldn't be much fun to use.
Many thanks for your advice so far. I've found some posts on removing the fuse board so I may take a closer look at that cut cable tomorrow.
I'm no electrician but I think I understand what your saying.. In essence a simple voltage test with a multimeter won't get the entire story. There could be a very low current which would lead to malfunctions/lack of function just the same. And such a low current would not be picked up when purely testing voltage. Problem is I rather stupidly (and this shows I'm no electrician) tested the amp output from the 12v socket with my multimeter.
...
Suffice to say I'm now searching for a very rare 10A multimeter fuse.
Your homemade lamp tester sounds interesting, but how would I make such a thing. I have some spare xantia bulbs and some fairly thick cabling, but judging by some of my past DIY exercises, a home tester wouldn't be much fun to use.
As in to test an earth? Or to use as an earth? If it's to use as an earth, I just used the door hinges. If it's to test an earth, would the cigarette lighter do?If you need a +12V live test voltage (to test out a chassis connection) then use the interior lights bulb holders. These are fuse proteced - so you dont burn out any circuits or your test wiring while fumbling around.
I've not got any fuses going fortunately, but replacing a fuse with a bulb sounds a little risky.If you are tracing a fused circuit that keeps burning its fuse - then replace the fuse with a bulb - using some wiring and a couple of spade connectors. A hefty bulb should be used such you dont get the bulb lite up on any small current. Use a headlamp bulb. Once the circuit does its nasty shortcircuiting - the bulb will lite up - and nothing else happens. You dont have to keep replacing fuses.
Are you sure? I know delicate electronics in computing and similar doesn't take kindly to all kinds of things (moisture, high temperature, excess vibration, static electricity). Could any of those factors messed up my radio? I agree though that the radio is unlikely to have been connected incorrectly, having removed the plugs I can say they're a nightmare to get on and off the right way, let alone the wrong way.The only way a radio can be damaged is connecting it wrong - i.e. reversing the polarity. Dont think a modern radio will bother - it will just not function. Maybe an internal hidden fuse will blow to protect against repeated connection faults.
Many thanks for your advice so far. I've found some posts on removing the fuse board so I may take a closer look at that cut cable tomorrow.
Cigar lighter used to be a live outlet too.
On later cars this is not true. You will have to select a fuse position to make the lighter outlet live - or key switched.
Car radios are made as rather sturdy pieces of electronics. Not sensitive like a PC. Unless you jetwash your car interior the radio should not be harmed.
You have earth wires and you have +12V wires. No matter the potiential - the wires can still have same kind of weaknesses. Because of the polarity - you need an opposite polarity to test a wire. +12V wires needs an earth (available almost everywhere). Earth wires would need a +12V to be tested using a bulb.
I always use the interior lights as supply for testing - as you can instantly see if the fuse blows - i.e. you can NOT see anything that is - when the interior lights disappears.
A homemade lamp tester is about the simplest tool you can make up.
A bulb needs 2 wires with opposite voltages to light up. A headlamp bulb has easy access as it would have at least 2 spade pins to connect the wires. The smaller bulbs would need some kind of a lamp or bulb holder. An old indicator lamp any kind/make is perfect.
Using a bulb instead of a fuse would never be riscy - why should it ? The bulb will not explode if thats what you think. It simply lights up like its supposed to if the circuit is faulty. Mind you - the circuit is carrying the maximum voltage differential of 12V from the battery - which is exactly the bulb rating.
You dont get hurt - or wont get electric shocks by 12V circuits.
But pleae do NOT use this approach on your housing power circuits
That would be lethal
On later cars this is not true. You will have to select a fuse position to make the lighter outlet live - or key switched.
Car radios are made as rather sturdy pieces of electronics. Not sensitive like a PC. Unless you jetwash your car interior the radio should not be harmed.
You have earth wires and you have +12V wires. No matter the potiential - the wires can still have same kind of weaknesses. Because of the polarity - you need an opposite polarity to test a wire. +12V wires needs an earth (available almost everywhere). Earth wires would need a +12V to be tested using a bulb.
I always use the interior lights as supply for testing - as you can instantly see if the fuse blows - i.e. you can NOT see anything that is - when the interior lights disappears.
A homemade lamp tester is about the simplest tool you can make up.
A bulb needs 2 wires with opposite voltages to light up. A headlamp bulb has easy access as it would have at least 2 spade pins to connect the wires. The smaller bulbs would need some kind of a lamp or bulb holder. An old indicator lamp any kind/make is perfect.
Using a bulb instead of a fuse would never be riscy - why should it ? The bulb will not explode if thats what you think. It simply lights up like its supposed to if the circuit is faulty. Mind you - the circuit is carrying the maximum voltage differential of 12V from the battery - which is exactly the bulb rating.
You dont get hurt - or wont get electric shocks by 12V circuits.
But pleae do NOT use this approach on your housing power circuits
That would be lethal
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
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pantherd90
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It's a live outlet on mine, not switched.Cigar lighter used to be a live outlet too.
On later cars this is not true. You will have to select a fuse position to make the lighter outlet live - or key switched.
But can they not develop a fault? I can't see why else the radio would be losing its memory intermittantly.Car radios are made as rather sturdy pieces of electronics. Not sensitive like a PC. Unless you jetwash your car interior the radio should not be harmed.
+12V wires needs an earth (available almost everywhere).
In others words, connect one wire (from home made tester or multimeter) to the 12V source and one to a grounded piece of metal.
Which interior lights? The map lights, or the side door lights. I know I've replaced a bulb in one before, but I can't remember the removal procedure, are they easy to remove?I always use the interior lights as supply for testing - as you can instantly see if the fuse blows - i.e. you can NOT see anything that is - when the interior lights disappears.
I have some spare Xantia bulbs, I will try this later. My only query is, could the bulbs blow/burn hands?A bulb needs 2 wires with opposite voltages to light up. A headlamp bulb has easy access as it would have at least 2 spade pins to connect the wires. The smaller bulbs would need some kind of a lamp or bulb holder. An old indicator lamp any kind/make is perfect.
I may stupid at times, but not that stupid.But pleae do NOT use this approach on your housing power circuits Shocked
That would be lethal
House electrics I tend to leave alone, the same can be said about plumbing.Anyway, when I'm testing cables in the Xantia I simply need to check with a voltmeter whether I'm getting a 12v supply (in which case I shove in a bulb and check it lights) or nothing (in which case I connect up a 12v supply, bulb and wire to cable and see that the bulb lights). There is no risk of me damaging anything this way, right?
What i'm guessing the ex owner of your car has done (the mod guy) is tried to wire the voltage to radio so it doesn't switch itself off when starting the car as cars usually do, and also made the ciggy socker live all the time, i doubt it was designed to work like this as it would be a potential fire hazard.
Another issue that I think would help is to explain current...voltage is all good and proper, but you need the right amount of current, this is measured in Amps (ampere) and is basically how much electricity flows through the cable (where as voltage is the movement of this current, technicaly it means potential difference). To clarify things, think of current as the amount of water in a pipe, and the voltage the force of the water.
I talked about current above because a radio is obviously fused and fuses are rated in Amps, so if the radio needs a 10amp fuse and it's got a 1 amp fuse then there is a restriction in the flow of electricity there eventhough it shows 12v, maybe something else for you to consider. And on top of that maybe the radio is getting too much current and refuses to work properly becuase of this. So go check that all the fuses are the correct rating, there should be one behind the radio in a little plug on a live feed (especially if someone's been doing homemade jobs down there).
Good luck
Good luck
Another issue that I think would help is to explain current...voltage is all good and proper, but you need the right amount of current, this is measured in Amps (ampere) and is basically how much electricity flows through the cable (where as voltage is the movement of this current, technicaly it means potential difference). To clarify things, think of current as the amount of water in a pipe, and the voltage the force of the water.
I talked about current above because a radio is obviously fused and fuses are rated in Amps, so if the radio needs a 10amp fuse and it's got a 1 amp fuse then there is a restriction in the flow of electricity there eventhough it shows 12v, maybe something else for you to consider. And on top of that maybe the radio is getting too much current and refuses to work properly becuase of this. So go check that all the fuses are the correct rating, there should be one behind the radio in a little plug on a live feed (especially if someone's been doing homemade jobs down there).
Good luck
Good luck
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pantherd90
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It genuinly was designed like that, it's that way on quite a few cars in fact. And I know it's not been messed with because I'm the only one whos touched the wiring to the cigarette lighter.What i'm guessing the ex owner of your car has done (the mod guy) is tried to wire the voltage to radio so it doesn't switch itself off when starting the car as cars usually do, and also made the ciggy socker live all the time, i doubt it was designed to work like this as it would be a potential fire hazard.
Surely if someone put a 1amp fuse on a line that should have 10amp there wouldn't be a "bottleneck", more a "broken neck" so to speak. The 1amp fuse would just blow.I talked about current above because a radio is obviously fused and fuses are rated in Amps, so if the radio needs a 10amp fuse and it's got a 1 amp fuse then there is a restriction in the flow of electricity there eventhough it shows 12v, maybe something else for you to consider.
Slightly off topic but.........AndersDK wrote:
Not sensitive like a PC. Unless you jetwash your car interior the radio should not be harmed.
On my recent French trip to a small village in the Dordogne this is exactly what I saw !
We were taking an evening stroll and came across an elderly person equipped with a fairly powerful jet washer calmly spraying the boot area, rear seats and all interior windows (including the windscreen) all through the raised boot of a reasonably new looking small Peugeot.
There was a a lot of water involved and at first I couldn't believe what I was seeing.
What he had been carrying that needed such drastic action, I dread to think.
Ah, the French.
Dave.
Xantia Forte 1.8i, 16v X reg.(09/2000) 93K, aircon
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pantherd90
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Ok had a look at the fusebox, couldn't get the thing out, it wouldn't budge. And I almost got the plastic trim around it removed but was halted by the steering wheel shroud which would let the fusebox get away from it..
I got one or two pictures of the area and the cabling.. take a look for yourselves.
Views of the fuse box from above, done by prizing back the dash around it.
The piece of the dashboard next to the fusebox that had been attacked with some kind of jigsaw.
Also of interest and a little alarm was that on inspecting my fuses in the engine bay I found the box distinctly lacking in fuses when compared with the manual..
Manuals fuses
My fuses, including a 40 amp fuse (I've also got one in the box under the dash). Why do I even have 40amp fuses, I didn't believe they were necessary/used in the xantia.
As far as home made current testers go, I've got a headlight bulb from the Xantia, it's a philips 12V 60/55W bulb with 3 spade connectors. Would it be usable?
I got one or two pictures of the area and the cabling.. take a look for yourselves.
Views of the fuse box from above, done by prizing back the dash around it.
The piece of the dashboard next to the fusebox that had been attacked with some kind of jigsaw.
Also of interest and a little alarm was that on inspecting my fuses in the engine bay I found the box distinctly lacking in fuses when compared with the manual..
Manuals fuses
My fuses, including a 40 amp fuse (I've also got one in the box under the dash). Why do I even have 40amp fuses, I didn't believe they were necessary/used in the xantia.
As far as home made current testers go, I've got a headlight bulb from the Xantia, it's a philips 12V 60/55W bulb with 3 spade connectors. Would it be usable?