Grey / Multilayer Spheres ???

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 23 Jul 2006, 12:43

My C5 has the grey spheres.

But, whilst surfing Citroen sites I did come across a French site which showed some owners cars. There was a group of guys with Xantia Activas and they had some pictures from underneath whilst over a pit in a garage.

The Activa rear spheres on two of the cars were grey. They had 5 grey spheres on the rear. I would imagine they had used C5 spheres. I suppose the 2 x strut spheres and the Hydractive sphere may be a straight swap, but, I don't know what they'd use for the anti sink sphere or the activa/ram sphere ?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 23 Jul 2006, 12:54

KevMayer wrote:, but, I don't know what they'd use for the anti sink sphere or the activa/ram sphere ?

Probably the grey accumulator spheres. Remember the spheres here are there to provide an instant accumulated source of pressure - not for a damped suspension. Any accumulator sphere would do - despite Citroen specified different initial inflation pressure.

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 23 Jul 2006, 22:30

I've just read on a mailing list that I'm subscribed to that "grey" spheres are now becoming available for Xantia's including rear suspension strut spheres and front accumulator spheres which are grey in colour like C5 spheres, but are the normal spherical shape of green spheres, and that they are all multilayer. (And that the grey colour signifies they are multilayer - not sure if they also have the 3 dimples)

Does anyone have any official information on this ? My rear spheres will need replacing in the next 6 months or so and if multilayer spheres are now available for them I'd like to know

Regards,
Simon

406 V6 · Post by **406 V6** » 24 Jul 2006, 09:47

Anders, C5/C6 don't have acc spheres in the common way other Cits have, they are built in into the pump unit

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 24 Jul 2006, 12:14

406 V6 wrote:Anders, C5/C6 don't have acc spheres in the common way other Cits have, they are built in into the pump unit

The question was on a group of Activa's having grey spheres under the rear.

I do appreciate your comment though - as I did'nt have a clue on the C5

- mind you the C5 is approx double the price here as other places (our tax system). Only ever seen C5's from a distance - passing me on the highway - or parked on a parking lot.

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 24 Jul 2006, 18:33

Here's something that I wonder about.
All hydraulic systems up to but not including the C5 run on LHM (apart from the very early D's that ran LHS) which is a mineral hydraulic fluid. Enter the C5 and I understand that they run a synthetic (a 'la LHS kind of stuff) which would mean that if the spheres from say a C5 were fitted to a Xantia or any other LHM Citroen for that matter, wouldn't the risk be that the material that the membrane is made of and the "O" ring that they all have, stand a chance of failing due to this different fluid?
Reason I ask, is that I remember years ago there being a big deal made of what was required to run an LHS equipped "D" series on LHM.
Anybody any thoughts on that?

Alan S

slim123 · Post by **slim123** » 24 Jul 2006, 19:04

LHS 2 fluid (Liquid Hydraulic Synthetic) is basicly a brake fluid with a high lubrication quality, straight brake fluid will not lubricate.

This was used in the Citroen big six, with hydraulic rear suspension only and the DS up untill 1966.

Then came along LHM (Liquid Hydraulic Mineral) This has been in use in all hydraulic Citroens since 1966.

The two cannot be used in each others systems, to remove any doubt, the LHS2 system had a black reservoir, black spheres and pump etc. The LHM systems used green.

That is all untill the XM came along fitted with a black reservoir, but by this time Citroen probabaly guessed that most had forgotten about LHS2.

The C5 / C6 uses a fluid called LDS, (I dont know what the initials mean) This fluid is synthetic, but only in the way that it is man made, it is still a mineral fluid.

The LDS will not affect the seals in the LHM system nor will LHM affect the LDS spheres.

If you get a jar and put a 50/50 mix of LHM/LDS fluid give it a shake up, it mixes and stays mixed. If you use a 50/50 mix of LDS/ Water and shake it this will seperate when left still, meaning that the LDS is not hygroscopic. If you do the same 50/50 mix using LDS/ Brake fluid, again it will seperate.

So this can very simply tell us that LDS is a mineral fluid and compatable with LHM.

As a final test, if you take a small amount of LDS and leave a couple of seals soaking overnight, 1 x LHM seal and 1 x brake fluid seal, you will find that the brake fluid seal will swell up, leaving the LHM seal unnafected.

Why did I do these tests?? Because I want to know, just in case the customer puts in the wrong fluid, then I know the action I can take.

Finally, I am not suggesting that you use the LHM in LDS systems, Citroen, for their reasons have chosen this fluid and I would say stick to the correct stuff.

Regards
Slim

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 24 Jul 2006, 20:12

-> '66 : LHS = Liquide Hydraulique Suspension
'66 -> : LHM = Liquide Hydraulique Minerale
C5/C6 -> LDS = Liquide Direction et Suspension

Thats what I read somewhere a couple of years ago. Might very well have been on one of Julian Marsh's (numerous) Citroen info webpages.
http://www.citroenet.org.uk/

Slim :
I find it VERY interesting your lab tests on the LHM/LDS fluid compatibility. They may not be interchangeable pr factory specifications - but it certainly seems that either system is not harmed by either fluid.
(Keeping the old DOT type brake fluid out of the discussion)

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 24 Jul 2006, 21:30

Thanks guys, I think that's a point that a lot may have thought about but never asked and one a lot didn't even think of (but would panic if ever someone accidentally put the wrong stuff in and nobody knew the answer).

I heard a tale not so long ago about a guy who sold a BX to someone who was Citilliterate and who came back a year or so later wanting him to buy the car back for several reasons, the 'hydraulic complications' being one, and when asked about fluid it was a case of "I did what the guy at the service station told me and topped it up with brake fluid."

Which proves it can and does happen.

Alan S

PS. He didn't buy the car back by the way.

slim123 · Post by **slim123** » 24 Jul 2006, 22:53

Whilst chatting to the boys at Pleiades, they told me that a customer had come in, on a lorry, with major hydraulic failure.

When the problem was diagnosed as rust due to water in the LHM reservoir, he told them that a mate, who was a sort of mechanic, told him that since it was a mineral system, you can top it up with mineral water!

So he pops into has local shop, gets a bottle of perrier and lobs it into the LHM tank!!!

He said it worked fine for a while.

Some people

Regards
Slim

deian · Post by **deian** » 24 Jul 2006, 23:04

no way! is that true? Some people huh! Thats hilarious!

Maybe the 'sort of mechanic' was being scarcastic! I hope so!

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 25 Jul 2006, 00:45

Where I live, Citroens are so rare that when you pull into a servo, you often get the usual comments "what's that?" along with "who makes 'em" and occasionally, "It's Jap isn't it? Is it some sort of Nissan?"

Things that have happened have been my wife getting petrol in a CX and the guy insisted on checking the oil. Don't ask me how, but I then got a call at work to go and look at the car because it wouldn't go. When he pulled the dipstick out, he couldn't get it back in, so first he bent it, then he managed to disconnect the throttle cable, then partially dismantled the carby and pulled a few other things off and then couldn't figure where they all went. I had to go there, at the bowsers and reassemble the car so she could drive it. I'm telling that because it gives an idea of how easy a disaster can happen in that environment.
A couple of years ago, when we didn't have the good supply of LHM we now enjoy over here, I needed a top up so went looking for some at a servo that I thought might sell it for Tractor use.
Told them what I wanted and the response was "what colour is it?" and when I said green, they duly arrives at the car with a bottle of coolant in the hand. When I said it wasn't that I was after, I was told "Oh yes it is; see............same colour" they were so insistent they were going to put it in the LHM tank, I literally had to threaten to snot him if he did.

I subsequently heard of that actually hjappening in Sydney and they reckon the mess it made was so indescribeable that the CCC down there had the parts on display at a meeting one night just so everybody could see the results.

Alan S

mezuk04 · Post by **mezuk04** » 25 Jul 2006, 08:10

I thought I was a bit daft, fortuantly this has given me great comfort

Just cant believe some people.

I think this site should produce some kind of car sticker advertising the forum for these Citroen drivers who need a little help with their cars before they send them to the scrappers.

I would be the first to stick it in the rear window.

KevMayer · Post by **KevMayer** » 25 Jul 2006, 09:43

I've found the pics of the Activa with grey spheres.

My memory was not as good as I thought... only 3 rear spheres replaced. The two struts and the Hydractive I think.

An accumulator has also been replaced.

take a look.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c242/ ... ses_ar.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c242/ ... _princ.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c242/ ... profil.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c242/ ... c_zoom.jpg

In fact there are a load of useful pics for Activa owners on the site where these pics came from. http://membres.lycos.fr/ci6web/auto/activa/

cheers, Kev

406 V6 · Post by **406 V6** » 25 Jul 2006, 10:09

Yup! C5 spheres! (or the multiplayer ones....)