Doh!, the noise wasnt the water pump or cam belt idler beari

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Mosser
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Doh!, the noise wasnt the water pump or cam belt idler beari

Post by Mosser »

Just put a new cam belt, idler pulley, and water pump on my 1998 Citroen Synergie to try and get rid of the nasty noise that peaks n volume at 1500rpm, and it didnt affect it at all

The noise sounds more like it is comming from under the cam shaft cover near the pulley, and i now suspect that because the previous owners left the oil change for 22,000 miles before i bought it, that the oil galley to the camshaft bearings are blocked with muck,

I inspected the oil as soon as i got the car home, and found the oil to be blacker than oil that comes out of a diesel, and a bit grainey, so i put some engine flush in and drive it for 50 miles then drained it and fitted a new filter and some magnatec oil, and since then, the noise from the top of the engine has been getting louder and louder over the last 1000 miles

Has anyone got any suggestions or exploded diagrams of the oil ways in the cylinder head and/or block ?, is is a simple case of just taking the camshaft out and poking something down the oilways to clear them then fitting new bearing shells to the camshaft ?

Has anyone seen anything similar to this and can offer any advice ?

I'm capable of stripping the engine and fixing this problem if i know how to do it, but i'm against the clock as we all go away on holiday at midday on monday and i fear that if i drive it like this, the camshaft will snap from overheating and lack of oil to its bearings

Heeeelp !!!!
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Mosser
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Post by Mosser »

Ok, Cam cover off, and the cams are sat in an oil bath, there seems to be a plastic bar that feeds oil to all the bearings, and the first bit of plastic that is white has a hole in its end, I assume this is to provide oil the the cams themselves for the oil bath ?

There seems to be plenty of oil up there, but does anyone know any tests i can do ?, oil pressure up there or can i poke something down the oilways up to the camshaft ?

I'm a bit stuck here now as it looks ok to me

I could put some lithium paste under each bearing cap and see if the noise goes away i suppose ?, lithium paste seems to last for a few thousand miles without any oil in past experiences !
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

Honestly Mosser -

You are chasing shadows :shock:
If anything moving at the camshaft area were running dry - there would be residues or other clear evidents from the metal to metal contact producing the noise.

What you should do now to avoid wasting nore time and money - is to put all your efforts into pinpointing the problem.
If not - you'll end up having replaced the engine completely - and then find a mice nest with hungry screeming babies - as pr Murphy's law :lol:

Purchase a doctor's stetoscope - as this is a perfect tool to locate noises from an engine. They usually come with a long probe tip. Available at most tool stores.
Then go hunt down the noise before you buy & replace more parts :idea:
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Mosser
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Post by Mosser »

I think your right Anders!,

I have had the cam caps off and they havent got bearing shells anyway, so if i do wear them out then its a head off machining job, and if i have to do that, i'm going to take the whole engine out and put a 2.0i 8v turbo lump in instead !! the XU10j2TE out ofthe activa or XM turbo should give it a bit more oompf !!

I will see if i can get a stethoscope tomorrow, otherwise i think i might just drive it with the noise on holiday and wait for it to go bang, Its certainly not a bottom end or piston/rod noise at least, and i have already run the engine with the aux belt off to put the alternator/compressor/PS pump and associated tensioners out of the question
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Mosser
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Post by Mosser »

right, there is definatly nothing wrong on the top end, and the noise isnt comming from the head anyway,

My neighbour but one popped round and listened to the engine with a big screwdriver to his ear, and has diagnosed a failing front crankshaft bearing, he said the noise is travelling down the crankshaft and can be heard on the crankshaft pulley as plain as day !!, he checked the clutch release bearing and said it isnt that, and disconnected the aux belt again, and it isnt any of that

So, does anyone know what type of bearing is behind the crankshaft pulley on the crankshaft ?, he seems to think it will be a ball bearing, but i thought it was bearing shells all the way along a crankshaft ?

Anyone got any pictures or know anything else ?

I'm going to drop the oil sump tomorrow and see if i can see anything, or if i can get access to the bearing without removing the gearbox

If anyone knows anything or has any info please post !!
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

Only bearings on crankshaft will be plain shell bearings - large diameter with powerful oil feed!

If the noise is coming from the crankshaft pulley area its possible your vehicle has a 2 part pulley and that this had disintegrated. Loads of info on this board - but basically its a new pulley.
jeremy
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Post by Mosser »

Thanks,

When i fitted the cam belt, i couldnt get the timing holes to line up in the cam sprocket and crank shaft at all, the were always about 20mm out, but when i inspected the pulley, i couldnt see a rubber centre in it at all, but i will take it off in the morning and have another look,

does it rub on the end of the block to make the noise ?, I'm struggling to actually find where this noise is comming from at the moment, but i'm pretty sure its the crankshaft area
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Mosser
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Post by Mosser »

Can i safely run the engine with the crankshaft pulley removed ?, or does it phyysically stop the cam belt comming off ?
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
jeremy
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Post by jeremy »

If you have the 2 part pulley why not simply mark a straight line across the 2 parts, start the engine and see if they move. Chalk would be one way to do it.

I'm not prepared to say what would happen if you ran the engine without the pulley. The cambelt pulley is sandwiched and would be reliant on its key and good luck not to move - and personally I would NOT do it unless someone else was paying the bill if all went wrong!
jeremy
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Post by Mosser »

Yeah, good point about it only running on its woodruff key, with some clear thinking this morning, running without the pulley sounds like engine suicide !!,

Good point about marking a line across the pulley, It does sound a bit like a rubber/metal squeak, i will do it in about 10 minutes

Thanks
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
Dave Burns
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Post by Dave Burns »

Don't run engine with crank pulley removed, crank pulley and the rear flange of the crank timing pulley together, form the controll pulley for the entire run of the belt over the rest of the pulleys.

Dave
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Post by Mosser »

Dont worry, I'm not going to run it wihout the crank pulley attached !!, it was a midnight madness thought last night!!

I'm still no closer to solving it, and it has got slightly worse, but the crankshaft pulley isnt slipping, i painted a tippex line across it and it is still straight,

I have done an oil change again, because in only 10 days of driving since i did the last oil change, (about 200 miles), the oil is jet black again like it came out of a diesel engine,

So new oil and filter, and i have also added some Ametech snake oil that they sell on Ebay as a last chance effort, i have had a can of it in my garage for about 12 months so it cant do any harm to an engine that is dying!!

I'm just going to take the car on holiday tomorrow morning and see what happens, if it dies then i have AA cover and will get recovered back home and collect my wifes Alfa 156 and drive back down there again

I will report back next weekend if anyone is interested in hearing how the cars going !!
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
sub42
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Post by sub42 »

Mosser,

You know how to get a man paranoid! My Synergie is off on a thousand mile round trip in two weeks and all this talk of dodgy noises is making me worried! Now I'm off to get the clutch cable done tommorow!
Previous convictions for ferret and giraffe rustling.

Synergie 1.9td SX loaded spec.
Mosser
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Post by Mosser »

Lol !!, dont worry about it, My noise is pretty loud, my neighbour but one commented on it as he could hear something was wrong from his house with mine just on tickover

If i put a screwdriver to the sump, it is pretty loud up near the crankshaft pulley and you can feel a bit of vibration too, but its too late for me to do anything, and if i need to, i can get a 2.0i 8v XU10J2 from an old leugeot 405 and can have the engines swapped in 2 days on my own, so i'm actually not that worried if it does go bang
2002 Peugeot 806 quicksilver HDI with bosch ecu
f00lzz
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Post by f00lzz »

Mosser wrote:I will report back next weekend if anyone is interested in hearing how the cars going !!
Good Luck..... looks like your going to have good weather anyway :D
Ian
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Current Cars
Nissan X-Trail SVE
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2001 Xantia 3.0 Exclusive
1999 Xantia 1.9TD
1997 Xantia 3.0 Exclusive
1995 XM 3.0 Exclusive Estate
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