[Xantia] Few questions

Post by **Darko** » 30 Jun 2006, 08:06

Hi everyone,

I have some questions aboout my 93 1.8i Xantia...

My brother had this car for quite some time. It went very well, however the fuel consumption has always been a problem - as far as I can remember, it was always around 20MPG. When I got this car about half a year ago and discovered this forums 8) I started realizing something is wrong - even though I drive slowly and I have a "light foot"

, the consumption was always somewhere around 20MPG

Also the problem is that when going up the hill, the car (especially during summer) barely comes to the top in second gear, it feels like it's loaded with a full tonne of stuff

. I think the two problems are somewhat correlated.

I checked the air filter and it seems OK (very little dust). Then I checked the brakes for binding... I lifted the car and saw that the front wheels aren't spinning nearly as easily as the rear ones - they can be turned by hand however when you let them go they immediately stop turning (the rear ones turn for several seconds). So my questions are:

- Should the front wheels rotate as easily as the rear ones?
- How much does this (resistance in turning the wheels) usually affect the driving? It seems logical that added resistance leads to greater fuel consumption, but _THAT_ much?
- What other things (about this problem) can I check or try to fix by myself before taking the car to Citroen? (the Citroen guys here are a bit funny - you have to tell them exactly what do you want them to do. For example when I took the car there to check the air condition coolant level (hasn't been filled for like 3 years) and the guy there just switched it on, put his hand in front of the nozzles and said "Seems okay to me..."

)
- Does the fact that the hydraulic pump is very loud affect it's "performance"?
- What is the little box below the tray (where immobiliser keypad usually is) that is labeled "magic sensor"?

- What type of bulbs fit into the plastic bulb holder in the heater control? Type 286 appears very similar, however it's "neck" is too long to fit in there

That's all I can remember now 8)

Thanks,
Darko

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » 30 Jun 2006, 08:57

Should the front wheels rotate as easily as the rear ones?

No! The front wheels will always be more reluctant to turn because of the driveshafts going into the gearbox. Having said that, jack up the front wheels and make sure the pads are not dragging.

Amazon Activa · Post by **Amazon Activa** » 30 Jun 2006, 13:52

20mpg!!

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 30 Jun 2006, 14:14

Me too : 20MPG

Something is really at wrong - also indicated by the engine struggling in second uphill.
The brakes binding you have noticed is NOTHING compared to that bad mileage - its normal drag from the gears in the differential, some tiny drag from the wheel bearings - and possibly even a light drag from the brake pads. All pretty normal and not alarming.

20MPG and a known light left food is bad - all TOO bad

You have a serious service problem with the engine.
I'd say you should try follow Haynes on all service checks you can read on the engine - then I'm pretty sure you will stumble over a couple of items.
Finally you should check (or have it tested out) that both the CTS and any ATS is working OK. These sensors both acts as kind of "choke" devices on cold engine - and cold intake air. If either is disrupted (or its cabling) then the ECU is running the engine with choke always on.

Note : bad MPG is rarely an expensive engine problem. In most cases its down to totally basic service issues - or a simple cable/sensor fault.

Post by **Darko** » 30 Jun 2006, 15:03

Thanks for your answers!

I found out now that the first owner (93-96) also had the same problem with the consumption (at least my brother says so

). The car has been serviced quite a lot in the first years, however as I said, you have to tell the Citroen people here what to do - otherwise they just replace some expensive things each time you come back for the same problem.

Should the computer reading show anything about faults like this (CTS and ATS (although I don't know what do these stand for

)? When connected to a computer, can the components actually be tested or it's only possible to read faults/logs?

Also it's burning quite a lot of oil - about 1,5 liters each tank - if this has to do anything with it...

Thanks,
Darko

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 30 Jun 2006, 16:26

Sorry

Always forgot that new members may not know these abbreviations.

CTS = Coolant Temp Sensor. Sensor signalling the Engine Control Unit (ECU = computer) the engine temperature. This sensor has a rather high ohmic value (some 5000 ohms) at cold engine. If it (or its cable) is disrupted - then you have a very high (infinite) ohmic resistance - which is interpreted by the ECU as a cold engine.
Opposite : at hot engine the CTS has a low ohmic resistance (some 300 ohms)

ATS = Air Temperature Sensor. Signalling the ECU the temp of the engine intake air temperature. Same function as the CTS except its in a different location on the engine.

I'm tempted to say that you should also have the engine timing checked. This is the cambelt position relative to the engine crankshaft & camshaft(s).
As this belt is a toothed belt - it is possible to fit a new belt 1-2 teeth out of position - resulting in very sluggish engine performance - and thus a very bad MPG as a consequence. Even "good" garages may do this.

The cambelt is the engine internal drivebelt that has to be replaced at certain intervals - usually at max 60Kmiles - to avoid an engine breakdown - if the cambelt snaps. It is designated a camBELT - because it is a rubber belt (toothed) re-inforced by nylon threading. It has a limited life expectancy - therefore replacement intervals.

Amazon Activa · Post by **Amazon Activa** » 01 Jul 2006, 11:35

Burning 1.5l Oil each tank!

This ain't helpful, but you have major problems!

Sturdybloke · Post by **Sturdybloke** » 01 Jul 2006, 14:06

Also it's burning quite a lot of oil - about 1,5 liters each tank - if this has to do anything with it...

That is a hell of a lot of oil (how long has it been burning that amount of oil?).The plugs must be totally fouled up with oil & carbon (its a wonder how the engine manages to fire up).I would not be suprised if the car failed its next mot on the emmissions as if its burning this much oil then the cat has to be shot due to the burnt oil/unburnt particles/carbon sticking to it.

Do us a favour and take off the oil filler cap and smell into the filler hole - come back and tell us if you can smell petrol........

Post by **Darko** » 01 Jul 2006, 16:56

how long has it been burning that amount of oil?

I think it has been always burning that amount of oil...

Well the strangest thing about this is that the car runs just fine...

I mean, it starts right away, engine sounds like a 'purr'

and it is a very pleasant to drive... Only the wallet is a little lighter

(well not that much since I don't drive it very much) and sometimes it's struggling when accelerating up the hill (although it helps if I switch the aircon off and switch to second at about 4k rpm)

Thanks,
Darko

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 01 Jul 2006, 19:19

Often excessive oil consumption is an indication of excessive bore/piston/ring wear. In particular the oil scraper rings stop working properly allowing oil to be burnt.

However performance etc will only suffer if the top compression rings are failing to seal and if this is happening then there will be excessive blowby of combustion gasses and the engine will leak oil from everywhere including places you didn't know existed. Another symptom is that if you remove the filler cap you will have to get out of th way as the fumes will be so heavy.

OK its a rough test but it works.

If the engine is clean and not fuming excessively then the chances are the rings etc are working adequately and the car should drive normally.

So if its drinking fuel and not performing well the fuel must be going somewhere! - Sounds obvious but its true - and so its either leaking in which case you would probaly smell it or its burning rich - in which case you will probably see black smoke (yes even on a petrol) if you follow it.

The other possibility is burning lean in which case you would probably notice the engine ran hot.

You say the plugs are sooty. This would indicate either an excessively rich misture or poor spark. Poor spark would probably be audible at the exhaust as either an uneven note or audible misses.

If the transmission or brakes were the problem the car would have caught fire long ago. If a joint or brake is running tight it will generate masses of heat - so run it a bit, stop without heavy braking and have a feel (careful! - don't grasp anything till you're sure its not hot.)

I'd go with Anders on the cambelt/timing as being worth inspecting carefully as I'm sure this will NOT show up on any computer diagnostics.

Also worth having a look at the high tension system in the cark with the engine running. If you don't see sparks all is well!

Question for someone familiar with these engines - can the plug leads be swopped? Does this have 2 coils and the wasted spark system (no distributor?) If so I suppose 1 coil does cylinders 1 and 4 and the other 2 and 3? - Could the leads be swapped? - so one coil is say doing 1 and 3 or 2 and 4?

Post by **Darko** » 22 Jul 2006, 14:41

Hi again everyone

I got the injectors cleaned and the fuel consumption seems to be improved - I drove it 450km and the consumption was 9.1 liters/100km (31 MPG) which is a lot better. However they said one of the injectors' performance is degraded by 20%, but that all four have to be changed at the same time. Is this true?

The performance problem, however, still exists. Driving on a motorway, I couldn't get it to more than 145km/h.

Few days ago I was driving uphill (well it's a steep one, but can go up in fourth gear with Xantia 1.8 16V) and I switched to second gear at 5000 rpm (!), however after few seconds I had to switch back to first as the revs dropped to 1500 and engine would stop otherwise. Switching the aircon off helps A LOT (sometimes it appears the aircon switch is the "turbo" button

), however it is still far from what it should be.

The difference between driving (especially uphill) my brother's 90HP Xsara and my 100HP Xantia is like a difference between a Ferrari and AX. It feels more like 50HP than 100

So my new questions:
- do all four injectors have to be changed at the same time?
- is the aircon supposed to consume so much power (not so noticable at higher gears and speeds, however switching aircon off when driving uphill gives a noticable boost)?
- how can the head rests be fitted to the rear seats which don't have the holes for them? Can I just pull the "pipes" with closed tops and replace them with the ones with the holes in them?

Thanks,
Darko

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 22 Jul 2006, 19:12

Darko -

Why dont you get the simple things checked like suggested above ?
1) compression
2) timing

Both are very easy, simple and cheap to test. And it tells you a LOT on the engine's missing performanc - in seconds.
We wont be able to help you further if you dont do the basics to get on with the troubleshooting.

I'm very surprised you forked out the money on injector cleaning before doing even the basic tests.
Will you be replacing the starter motor next ? - as this is only some £150 - and MAY be dragging on the engine

- or you like better to fork out some £350 for a full leather cabin

- to make you forget the low engine performance while driving

With such a noticeable drop in engine pull when a/c is cutting in - you know the engine is down to some 40-60Bhp effective.
The a/c takes some 6-8Bhp from the engine.

teethgrinder · Post by **teethgrinder** » 22 Jul 2006, 22:25

Go for a V6...I hear you can get nearly 30 mpg on a run...the wife might even fall for that!

Robin

deian · Post by **deian** » 22 Jul 2006, 23:15

maybe your car isn't getting the right amount of fuel in the engine, for example a leak at the fuel line, or even before, in the pipes, all points to bad fuel pressure, on top of this you could check the fuel pressure regulator, if this works by the engine vacuum (not sure on psa engines) then check the pipe going from the head to the regulator, i'm guessing it could be to do with badly routed vacuum/fuel pipes, on top of this have you changed the fuel filter?

mpr1956 · Post by **mpr1956** » 22 Jul 2006, 23:38

Hi Darko... This general lack of performance on an otherwise well running engine makes me wonder if the Cat is faulty or blocked..I think the ecu defaults to a "get you home" mode if it detects a Cat problem ( Someone on here that "knows" may be able to confirm this. Finally.. don't lose sight of the big picture and spend too much money on rectifying faults on what could well be a car that is just reaching the end of its useful (economically I mean) life ! Best Wishes, Martin