No, not MY Berlingo, luckily enough.
My Neighbour has a P Reg Berlingo 19D which he bought at auction. During the late summer this year he decided, in view of the dubious mileage and lack of service history, that a timing belt change might be on the cards.
I could not argue with that one. To show willing, I obtained not only a genuine Citroen belt 81658, but also copied him the diagram that tells you how to time the engine. For good measure I also lent our man the bolts for the cam pulley and pump pulley. As well as my bottom pulley pulling tool.
As Dave Bamber will testify, our man proceeded to remove the old belt and fit the new one without the use of the timing bolts. Rather alarmed by this, I helped by fitting the new belt, and locked the 2 pulleys with the said bolts, plus stuck a timing rod through the flywheel. All was aligned. I fitted the new belt, and tensioned it (with the pins still in) to the standard ¼ flex at the longest point. Nothing can go wrong I convinced myself. As I have other things to do in my life (at that time a 1 year olds birthday party with my daughter) I advised our man to remove the bolts, turn the engine one complete turn manually, and check that the bolts/pins went back in. Quite simple, nothing can go wrong! It transpires that our man decided that the belt was not quite tensioned enough, and re-tightened it.
A few weeks later, I heard the Berlingo start one morning, and it was obvious that something was not quite right. Like it sounded awful. Like a bad clattering noise. I suggested to my neighbour that something was wrong, certainly in the pump timing area. He pronounced it sound, and said that it was going better than ever.
Tonight, it arrived on an AA Relay wagon as I was returning from work. It was dead. I whipped off the timing belt covers, and the rocker cover and found that the cam had snapped between 3 and 4,and that the cam pulley had snapped and lost 1/3 of itself!
The belt was still sound, no breaks and no missing teeth.
Pointed out to our man that it was Donald Ducked, and as I so love working in the freezing cold at night in fog with a torch and leadlight I whipped the head off, which revealed some nicely bent valves.
I’m not going to take the blame for this one as I told him. I believe that after I left he re-tensioned the belt WITHOUT the pins in, and that advanced the pump timing. I don’t know whether that caused the blow up, but certainly that timing belt is undamaged, and the tensioners are fine.
Now looking for decent built up head, or complete engine, plus the loss of a weekend day.
I'm not having the best of days. Any comments?
Can over advanced pump timing cause this?
<img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
Berlingo went bang, Big style
Moderator: RichardW
is this a DW8 engine by any chance ? (the one with the oval shaped fuel filter).i've seen this happening once or twice on this type of engine & sometimes caused by a shredded alternator belt jumping the timing & sometimes by a collapsed roller,yet the belt is undamaged. they break the camshaft 9 times out of 10 when the belts go.also the 3 10mm bolts on the cam & cranckshaft pulleys should be loosened when tensioning the belt.(this all asuming it's a DW8 engine) and also remove the vaccum pump & check it,when the camshaft breaks it usually breaks up the vaccum pump drive.
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
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- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
If the belt were slack enough to ride over the pump pulley, injection timing would get retarded, if this was all that was happening then after enough slippage the engine would simply stop with no damage caused.
Unfortunately, just like electricity, water and gasses take the shortest route when things go ape, so do mechanical devices, and the shortest route to destruction in this case was the crankshaft pulley, for several simple reasons.
One, the crankshaft pulley is only half the diameter of the camshaft and pump pulleys, meaning only a small amount of slack in the belt is necessary for it to dissengage, a bigger pulley as on the pump would require even more slack in the belt to jump the pulley teeth.
Two, the camshaft and pump pulleys are only traveling at half engine speed, plus the crankshaft pulley is where accelerational forces are first applied to the belt, so there's much more scope for failure at the this pulley.
And three, the crankshaft pulley is the one doing all the work by driving the the rest of the pulleys and devices in contact with the belt.
No doubt your man will have learned a valuable lesson, and feel it in his pocket.
Dave
Unfortunately, just like electricity, water and gasses take the shortest route when things go ape, so do mechanical devices, and the shortest route to destruction in this case was the crankshaft pulley, for several simple reasons.
One, the crankshaft pulley is only half the diameter of the camshaft and pump pulleys, meaning only a small amount of slack in the belt is necessary for it to dissengage, a bigger pulley as on the pump would require even more slack in the belt to jump the pulley teeth.
Two, the camshaft and pump pulleys are only traveling at half engine speed, plus the crankshaft pulley is where accelerational forces are first applied to the belt, so there's much more scope for failure at the this pulley.
And three, the crankshaft pulley is the one doing all the work by driving the the rest of the pulleys and devices in contact with the belt.
No doubt your man will have learned a valuable lesson, and feel it in his pocket.
Dave
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Jon
Thanks Dave for that.
Tomorrow, in the light, will have a look further at the belt and will prbably find irs either broke or stripped its teeth in the crank pulley area as you suggest. Last night I just cut the belt to get the head off as it was dark and cold.
I had never seen a cam pulley shatter before, that was a new one on me.
Several valuble lessons have been learnt here by the owner, and myself. Like, why did I get involved in the first place!
I was able to source 8 new valves and a cam pulley today, now on the lookout for a camshaft etc. If the head ain't that bad we'll send it to the engineering shop and get them to fit it all up together with machining the head/ cam carriers as required I suppose.
If not its a good s/hand built up head (if such a thing exists) I suppose.
Cheers
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
Tomorrow, in the light, will have a look further at the belt and will prbably find irs either broke or stripped its teeth in the crank pulley area as you suggest. Last night I just cut the belt to get the head off as it was dark and cold.
I had never seen a cam pulley shatter before, that was a new one on me.
Several valuble lessons have been learnt here by the owner, and myself. Like, why did I get involved in the first place!
I was able to source 8 new valves and a cam pulley today, now on the lookout for a camshaft etc. If the head ain't that bad we'll send it to the engineering shop and get them to fit it all up together with machining the head/ cam carriers as required I suppose.
If not its a good s/hand built up head (if such a thing exists) I suppose.
Cheers
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
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Jon
Bodgetastic Update
(Dave Burns and JohnD will probably weep about this one)
Fitted 8 new valves, and lapped them in, so far so good. My mate gave us a camshaft but its for a BX 19D with belt driven HP pump. So as my neighbour works at a large producer of Japanese cars here in Swindon <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> he took the "new" camshaft and the broken bit of the old one to work where they shortened the "new" one and cut a groove at the end so it can drive the vacuum pump!! Total cost so far, nil, I was given the valves and the cam for nowt.
Tommorrow we are actually going to purchase some shims and set the valve clearances. A second-hand cam pulley has also been fitted.
Having to splash out on a head set, head gasket, timing belt and a set of bolts too and hoping to get the beast back on the road this weekend!!
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
(Dave Burns and JohnD will probably weep about this one)
Fitted 8 new valves, and lapped them in, so far so good. My mate gave us a camshaft but its for a BX 19D with belt driven HP pump. So as my neighbour works at a large producer of Japanese cars here in Swindon <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle> he took the "new" camshaft and the broken bit of the old one to work where they shortened the "new" one and cut a groove at the end so it can drive the vacuum pump!! Total cost so far, nil, I was given the valves and the cam for nowt.
Tommorrow we are actually going to purchase some shims and set the valve clearances. A second-hand cam pulley has also been fitted.
Having to splash out on a head set, head gasket, timing belt and a set of bolts too and hoping to get the beast back on the road this weekend!!
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
[quote/]
"hoping to get the beast back on the road this weekend!!
Jon Wood"
And weld the bloody bonnet shut when you've finished this time willya!!! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>
Alan S
"hoping to get the beast back on the road this weekend!!
Jon Wood"
And weld the bloody bonnet shut when you've finished this time willya!!! <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle> <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>
Alan S
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JohnD
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It seems to me that correct belt tension is fairly critical on these engines. I've still got to do one, but having already replaced two of our XUD's with a TUD and an HDI, it's not going to be long before I do. Is it good enough to 'guestimate' with a 1/4 turn on the belt. Does anyone know if a measuring tool is available for DIY use? Citroen/Peugeot certainly didn't do us any favours when they dropped the XUD's automatic tensioner.
John,
I think you'll find that "guesstimate" is a sight more accurate than you may think & in some cases, the tension checker with all its bells & whistles, can't be properly used unless it's being used with the engine out on a bench. The reason I doubt that a checker would be available for DIY is that the opening sentence of instructions often is "be sure the instrument is calibrated correctly prior to use" mainly because these checkers (or at least the ones I've been advised on) can be used on a variety of styles & types of belts and so need to be changed to suit each application. Incorrect calibration equals incorrect readings and could give the DIYer a false sense of security as regards accuracy of set tension. In the case of a BX 16V, the tension of the belt on the RHS is given in a proprietry figure and then a comment added that "as it is set at it's maximum setting, there is no guarantee that this reading will be achieved" which again negates the use of the instrument.
I do know that with the BX 16 valve motor, which I have spent a lot of time researching, that one critical feature often omitted from fitting instructions is the direction the two tensioners are adjusted in. The other is the order in which the belt is both fitted & adjusted.
My personal theory on the tension checking tool & its "army precision" when fitting the belt is; what figures would it show after the new belt has been fitted and the car travelled 1000 miles? Which is why I personally feel that their use is more psychological and used to cover some of the slap happy mechanics workshop practices who often charge a Kings Ransome to fit them.
Alan S
I think you'll find that "guesstimate" is a sight more accurate than you may think & in some cases, the tension checker with all its bells & whistles, can't be properly used unless it's being used with the engine out on a bench. The reason I doubt that a checker would be available for DIY is that the opening sentence of instructions often is "be sure the instrument is calibrated correctly prior to use" mainly because these checkers (or at least the ones I've been advised on) can be used on a variety of styles & types of belts and so need to be changed to suit each application. Incorrect calibration equals incorrect readings and could give the DIYer a false sense of security as regards accuracy of set tension. In the case of a BX 16V, the tension of the belt on the RHS is given in a proprietry figure and then a comment added that "as it is set at it's maximum setting, there is no guarantee that this reading will be achieved" which again negates the use of the instrument.
I do know that with the BX 16 valve motor, which I have spent a lot of time researching, that one critical feature often omitted from fitting instructions is the direction the two tensioners are adjusted in. The other is the order in which the belt is both fitted & adjusted.
My personal theory on the tension checking tool & its "army precision" when fitting the belt is; what figures would it show after the new belt has been fitted and the car travelled 1000 miles? Which is why I personally feel that their use is more psychological and used to cover some of the slap happy mechanics workshop practices who often charge a Kings Ransome to fit them.
Alan S
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Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Hmmm....a guestimate is ok for non critical aplications, guess it wrong and you know whats round the corner.
Given that engine design doesn't vary that much, and that the belts will be very similar since they have to transmit very similar forces from engine type to type.
I would be looking at transfering a setting from a known correctly set tension via the automatic tensioner on the XUD.
Providing there are two very similar belt runs on the two engines between two pulleys on the tensioner side, make sure the XUD is correctly tensioned, then using a simple spring ballance, see how much the belt deflects with an applied force of say 1 or 2 Lbs or whatever, then set the other belts with non auto adjuster to the same known tension.
In my opinion its not good enough to simply grab a belt by hand and see how much it twists or deflects because you don't know what force you are subjecting it to and if its sufficient or too much, thats why there has to be a method involved of applying a known amount of force, otherwise it really is just a guess.
Dave
Given that engine design doesn't vary that much, and that the belts will be very similar since they have to transmit very similar forces from engine type to type.
I would be looking at transfering a setting from a known correctly set tension via the automatic tensioner on the XUD.
Providing there are two very similar belt runs on the two engines between two pulleys on the tensioner side, make sure the XUD is correctly tensioned, then using a simple spring ballance, see how much the belt deflects with an applied force of say 1 or 2 Lbs or whatever, then set the other belts with non auto adjuster to the same known tension.
In my opinion its not good enough to simply grab a belt by hand and see how much it twists or deflects because you don't know what force you are subjecting it to and if its sufficient or too much, thats why there has to be a method involved of applying a known amount of force, otherwise it really is just a guess.
Dave
Hey Jon, you dont fancy doing my cam belt do you, while you are in the mood? I have spent all my spare dosh for December on an excess of mince pies but the belt is still outstanding. They say it's not going to be raining on Reading from Wednesday onwards.
(now where's that icon for a winning smile?....)
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
(now where's that icon for a winning smile?....)
<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
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Jon
Love to. <b>NOT</b>
Knowing my recent luck, it would probably go bang. I'm still putting that Berlingo back together. Started again last night, all was going well until the neighbour got out the Polish beer again, and work halted. He could have probably got the job done at a garage for what its cost in beer so far, what with other friends/neighbours coming round, drawing breath and giving their insights as to what caused the engine to go bang. Then drinking more beer. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
If you want it done by a true pro with nice workshops and all the right stuff, why not run over to Louis Barbour's place at Great Missenden? A positive Guru of all things ZX. I'm sure I could ring him and put in some good words for you.
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com
Knowing my recent luck, it would probably go bang. I'm still putting that Berlingo back together. Started again last night, all was going well until the neighbour got out the Polish beer again, and work halted. He could have probably got the job done at a garage for what its cost in beer so far, what with other friends/neighbours coming round, drawing breath and giving their insights as to what caused the engine to go bang. Then drinking more beer. <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
If you want it done by a true pro with nice workshops and all the right stuff, why not run over to Louis Barbour's place at Great Missenden? A positive Guru of all things ZX. I'm sure I could ring him and put in some good words for you.
Jon Wood
forum@andyspares.com