Xantia flywheel timing hole & crankshaft pulley bolt

swiss_steve · Post by **swiss_steve** » 09 May 2006, 13:28

Hi folks, can anyone give me some advice before I embark on my first cambelt change on my Xantia 1.9 TD.
Before getting started, I wanted to make sure I could overcome the most difficult things I found on a similar previous job (I've done a Peugeot 205 XUD engine in the past, without problems).
Firstly, I looked for the flywheel timing hole near the starter; impossible to find! Haynes recommended removing the starter, but that appears to be a nightmare with the very limited access and many cables, pipes etc running in that area; the description of removal in their manual is woefully inadequate (as usual!).
Question: does the starter really have to come out to both find and get the pin in the hole?
Secondly, I got to the cranshaft pulley bolt and tried to shift the nut but it wouldn't budge. The gospel from Haynes suggest holding the brakes in gear, etc - no chance!
Question: am I resigned to defeat and getting the job done by a garage (this will be a first for me, if so), or must I get that starter motor off to fit a flywheel tooth-holding tool, and retain my amateur mechanic prowess by completing the job by myself?
Any tips or hints would be welcome.
Ta!

Post by **RichardW** » 09 May 2006, 14:12

Steve,

What year is the Xantia? If it's an early one, it might have clip on covers (which is nice 8) )- if it's later, it will have bolt on covers (which is not nice

).

So....

Flywheel bolt. Tackle with the engine hot - this softens the thread lock. Use a good 1/2" (at least!) breaker bar, and support end of the bar so the force is going into turning the bolt rather than ripping the spanner off. I've managed 4 using a 3 foot pipe against the handbrake, but if it's really tight you might have to resort to getting your local garage to loosen the bolt with their windy gun.

Locking the flywheel. The hole is there. Honest! There's a sort of lip along the bottom edge of the block that leads into the hole. I have a piece of 8mm bar, about 60cm long, with about 6" at the end bent to about 15°, and the end chamfered. I put this against the block basically in between the starter body and solenoid, and then slide it along, and it usually* drops straight in the hole. When you are in you will hear a distincitve ringing sound as the bar taps the flywheel. The advantage of the long bar is that I can stand by the driver's wing, rotate the engine via the wheel with one hand whilst pushing the bar in with other. If you've got the top covers off, you can watch the cam shaft hole and when it gets to about 4 o'clock the flywheel pin should slide in. If you push on the rod and turn the wheel at the same time you can feel it.

* On my mate's 93 TD there was so much cruddy oil we had to take the starter off and clean the hole out with a bradawl!

Covers: the 10mm bolt behind the engine mount is best tackled from underneath. There is a bolt down the back right under the turbo pipe, just above the chassis leg - this one is 11mm for a laugh, rather than 10 like the rest

Depending on the turbo pipe arrangement you might have to take one of the pipes off to get access (even more fun!). Of course, if it's got clip on covers, just unclip and go!

swiss_steve · Post by **swiss_steve** » 09 May 2006, 16:16

Hi Richard, thanks a lot for your speedy response.
Firstly, apologies for omitting the year - it's an October '98 build and just weeks before the Facelift models came out (according to my Citroen dealer). The model is a Temptation, which I think was an attempt by Citroen to flog some of the old standard cars before bringing the new ones to market.
Now the bads news: I'm not near the car right now (I'm supposed to be working on this business trip!), but from memory, I recall seeing small bolts holding on the cambelt covers (with Hex and/or socket heads, perhaps?) thinking they will be tricky to remove as they are very close to the body of the car....
I'll also try your method to loosen off the pulley bolt; I'll get a long pipe etc to use with my 1/2" socket, however I assume that you need to jack the car up high on the axle stands in order to get enough ground clearance to use that 3' long socket wrench arrangement.
Just one thought: won't there be too much 'movement or 'give' through the driveshafts and gearbox to hold the engine crankshft still enough to crack the torque on the pulley bolt? Anyway, I'll try it and if all else fails, will ask my local garage to loosen it enough for me to finish the job at home.
I really appreciate your idea about the long flywheel locking pin, especially when trying to turn the crankshaft pulley bolt on one side of the car whilst trying to locate the hole with the 'pin' on the front of the engine. My biggest worry here was simply not being able to see or find the hole!
Finally, I really don't like the sound of the cover bolts being so inaccessible, particularly the 11mm one round the back near the turbo. I've never gone anywhere near the turbo or its pipework and will probably dread this part of the job more than anything else. The idea of removing turbo pipes sounds horrendous!
Anyway, thanks for all the tips and will come back to you later when I've tackled the job...
Cheers,
Steve

Post by **RichardW** » 09 May 2006, 16:55

If it's 98 it will be bolt on covers. On the up side, these have modified turbo pipes and I don't think you need to remove them. On the downside, you will have aircon pipes in the way....

You need to get the car in high and jacked up and take the RH wheel off, then the wing liner out. You will then have easy access to get in with about 15" of extension, put a jack or axle stand under the extension and swing away. There's a bit of give in the drive components, but it usually takes up in about 1/3 of a turn. And in case you start wondering the bolt is RH thread! If the brake disc screws are not present, or not in good condition, re fit a couple of wheel bolts or the disc will slide against the hub and you will get nowhere!

Oh, and you need a 16mm deep socket to get the engine mount off (on the up side this a standard spark plug size!).

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 09 May 2006, 17:06

Theres a quick way of doing this but not for the fainthearted- guaranteed to work first time and every time, though- I've been using this method for 20 odd years.

Place your socket on the pulley bolt, wedge the bar against the chassis, give the starter a quick flick-but NOT enough to start the motor. This will shock the bolt loose.

You MUST ensure however, that you work out in your head what way the pulley is going to turn in relation to the bolt and your bar-basically you need the bolt to stay still while the crank unwinds behind it- the reverse of unwinding the bolt with the crank staying still, in fact.

rory_perrett · Post by **rory_perrett** » 09 May 2006, 17:28

Did a cam belt on Saturday on a '95 1.9td. Couldn't get a rod into the fly wheel hole. Found it easier to take the starter off. Take off the two wires (having disconnected the batery - make sure you have radio codes etc before)13mm nut for the main power and 8mm for the solenoid I think. Mine was held on with 3 bolts, all easily get at-able once the air filter was removed. 2 were allen head bolts and the other was a double ended screwed rod with a nut on. Most strange.

Once the starter was moved out of the way I could see the hole clearly, problem was it wasn't 8mm dia which is why my posh locking rod from my Draper timing set wouldn't go in. Ended up using some 6mm screwed bar.

As said, engine hot before trying to remove crank shaft bolt.

Word from experience (mostly bad late on Saturday night) Make a careful note of the routing of the auxilary belt! If it seems to have become suddenly too short you are trying to put it on the wrong way.

Best of luck

Rory

Gregg1100 · Post by **Gregg1100** » 09 May 2006, 18:13

Posted: 11 Feb 2006 16:10 Post subject: xantia Crankshaft Bolt

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,
To get crankshaft pulley bolt undone easily, fit a good socket or ringspanner on head of bolt, turn crank so that spanner/socket is jammed against body ( anticlockwise ), then just give starter a flick. Instant bolt undo. It`s how the trade do it, and will do no harm.
Regards,
Greg

Dave Burns · Post by **Dave Burns** » 09 May 2006, 20:40

Its not how the trade do it at all, only how the dodgy ones in the trade might do it, would you take your car somewhere where they undo bolts in this fashion, I hope not.

The loctite on the bolt thread even when hot soaks up a fair amount of force before it lets go, that force needs to be applied progressively to give the bond a chance to shear, use the dodgy method and you give it no chance, mostly the bolt will be up to it but just remember that the bond can overcome the breaking torque of these bolt.

If you think changeing the belt is a bit of a challenge you are going to be out of your depth recovering the remains of a broken bolt should the worst happen.

Dave

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 09 May 2006, 21:09

Dave Burns wrote:... If you think changeing the belt is a bit of a challenge you are going to be out of your depth recovering the remains of a broken bolt should the worst happen ...

... as the locktite still holds the remains of the bolt inside the crank ...

DaveW · Post by **DaveW** » 09 May 2006, 21:28

I have recently replaced the belts on my 1.9TD and I would say that it is easier to unbolt the starter motor to find the hole.
I had done a couple of BX's so was fairly confident about doing the job but there there is so much more in the way of cables and pipes (and oil filler) in the way on the Xantia that you can waste a lot of time fiddling with a bent rod.
If yours is like mine there is a plastic guard over the clutch which has LHM pipes and cable sheaths clipped onto it and is bolted onto an extension of one of the starter motor bolts (the hex headed one - the other two are allen socket).
The clips are easily undone with a little vertical brute force after squeezing the expanded part underneath with pliers and giving them a squirt with WD40.
You can move the guard to one side after you have undone the hex nut, and then undo the bolts and move the starter out of the way. With the battery disconnected there is no need to undo the connections to the starter motor - just make sure it finds a good supporting resting place.
You will then be able to see the flywheel timing hole and be able to move the fly wheel with a screwdriver on the starter ring.

This adds about 20 - 30 minutes to the job but makes life so much easier.

If you do try the bent rod approach beware of finding not the timing hole but the cutaway by the the starter (don't ask how I know this ! ). It feels just like the rod has slipped into the hole and sounds the same.

I had started the job with a cold engine so used a low to medium blowlamp flame to carefully ( watch the rad bottom hose) heat up the crankshaft bolt for about five minutes. Using the set up as described by Richard - extension supported by an axle stand and a four foot length of scaffold tube on a 1/2" breaker bar - the bolt undid very easily.
Surprisingly, the bolt was warm for the whole of it's length, you would think that all that metal would suck away the heat.
I had used a short length of 8mm stainless steel rod (about 2") in the flywheel timing hole to lock the engine.

Dave.

Just remembered. When I tried to take the Aux. belt off after slackening the adjuster clamp screws and screwing in the adjuster as far as it would go, I couldn't understand why it would not just "slip off" as it said in the BOL. What had happened was the threaded hole the adjuster screws into had corroded and the adjuster was jamming when only half way home.
Having eventually wangled the old belt off off, I unscrewed the adjuster and ran a tap up the hole to clear it. After that the adjuster screwed right in until the washer like flange rested flush.

Gregg1100 · Post by **Gregg1100** » 09 May 2006, 21:51

Hi;
It IS how the trade used to do it. It keeps skin on knuckles too. It has also never failed for me. I served my apprenticeship in a BMC garage, albeit a long time ago..
Greg

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 09 May 2006, 23:41

Correct- it is something done mainly by old-skool mechanics!!! Its never failed for me, either, but its not something I'd recommend people do if they are at all uncertain of what way everything goes.

If its been on for thirty odd years,though, its often the only way.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 10 May 2006, 08:34

Gregg1100 wrote:Hi; It IS how the trade used to do it.

...it's how SOME people in the trade do it. After all, "the trade" covers an awfully large number of people.

Personally, I wouldn't ever do it that way. I have a super-high tensile 8mm bolt with it's threads cut off, a bullnose ground into the end, and a long bendy handle welded onto it, and can find the timing hole in ANY XUD installation. With that installed, and a long breaker bar on the crankshaft bolt, they come undone beautifully easily, without any risk of breaking anything.

I guess I've done maybe 30 XUD cambelts now, in all manner of PSA vehicles... never failed.

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 10 May 2006, 08:41

Why don't all models have a timing hole in the crankshaft pulley? I recently did my 2.0 16V, which does, and it was dead easy to lock up and check!

Gregg1100 · Post by **Gregg1100** » 10 May 2006, 18:53

Hi,
Like I said, it works for me, with no knuckles cut or being on the other end of a long bar when it slips. If you don`t like this way, don`t do it this way. Do the job your way. Nothing to break anyway. When the bolt gives and loosens in a hurry, your hand/ arm goes in the direction of the pressure you have applied to the long bar. If unlucky, you will lose skin, I won`t. We must agree to differ.
Greg.
Ps. I couldn`t answer this last night, had an early start today