off subject slilghtly - diesel shelf life

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jgra1
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off subject slilghtly - diesel shelf life

Post by jgra1 »

Hi All.. I am trying to get a friends diesel LandRover S3 working, after I replaced the head..

having no luck.
Glow plugs seem ok (3 do anyway)

fuel appears at the injectors, (although not in the quantity/pressure i would have expected)

The fuel smells more like turps or paraffin (it is Definately diesel but has been in the tank for 2-3 years)

could this be the problem?

I can easily try running it from a plastic can..just curious...
John
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Post by Peter.N. »

Anything thats remotely oily will burn in a diesel engine. It sounds as thought he problem is as you say, insufficient pressure at the injectors, its probable that you still have some air in the system. Have you fitted a new fuel filter?
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Post by AndersDK »

Diesel fuel does not degrade like petrol. However you can get bio-growth in the diesel fuel system if left in peace over a nice warm summer ...

I'm with Peter on your problem. Have at least 2 well charged batteries at hand and then try bleed the fuel system. Do not exaggerate it - as the starter motor gets really hot in the end ...
During glow plug pre-heating timing - take a voltage measurement directly over the glow plug - from tip to nearby cylinder head earth. This will instantly tell you if the glowplugs gets the correct power feed. Should be at least 11V.

You're dead sure the diesel pump is timed spot on ? - as the timing belt was removed during head change.
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Post by jeremy »

I agree with Peter. Does it sound Ok when cranked over? - ie has it got 4 compressions? - if so unless the timing has been interfered with its likely to be air in the system.

The pipes to the injectors will no doubt have drained and now be full of air as will the rest of the system. The bleeding will probably be in 2 stages as unlike most Citroens it will have a diesel lift pump. The lift pump may have a primer and from what i remember the trick is to bleed the low pressure circuit first and prime the injection pump. There are probably 1 or 2 bleed points on the pump - small bolts with 'blued' heads and you pump for a while till bubble free fuel comes out of them, then close them, crack one of the injector pipes, and turn the engine on the starter until fuel comes out of the pipes. Tighten them up as fuel comes out, repeat and with luck the thing will fire up before you get to the last one.

The workshop manual may help

http://users.skynet.be/sn/manuals.htm

I think you'll find that if the injection system is properly primed that you get fumes and diesel mist everywhere whenever you crank the engine. None is a fairly good indication that nothing is being injected.
Last edited by jeremy on 17 Mar 2006, 14:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jgra1 »

thanks chaps..

The plugs are getting direct power from battery for the usual 5 seconds then being left on for about 10-15 seconds while i turn her over... then I stop and disconnect everything, before trying agaion after 60 seconds..
The battery is hefty as you might guess, even so i am jumping from my TD Xant at the same time.. engine turning over nice and fast..

Injection pump wasnt moved during belt change..

Has anyone taken injector pipes of their TD? I guess 1000 psi would be easy to spot, but maybe in an uncontrolled 'open' environment it doesnt look that impressive?

Unfortunately, the (seperate) fuel pump is the type with the small 'arm' underneath, (as a prime) , this doesnt seem to be doing anything, so I guess I cannot prime the system except by turning it over...
hmm
i would guess i have given her 5 mins on the starter, in bursts... so far..

I may as well change the suspect plug anyway.. (I took them all out and fed/earthed them (sprayed with a liquid) and watched the steam...
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Post by jgra1 »

thanks Jeremy you wrote as I was writing my answer...

will look for bleed points.. may need to change fuel pump..

yes cambelt changed..

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Post by jeremy »

Jgra - The fuel lift pump is probably OK - is simply is that there is air in the pump and this is acting as a spring - so the lift pump can't supply fuel. Its max pressure is governed by a speing which does the actual pumping and probably works at about 6 psi. Of course your pump is mounted vertically on the head where the distributor should go so the fuel has actually to be raised as well.

I think the Roto-diesel pumps (a derivative of the CAV) used on Citroens are rather different internally - as they function as lift pumps as well they may have a better way of dispelling internal air which certainly can get into the control mechanism. I haven't seen any low pressure bleed points on a Citroen Roto-diesel pump and the instructions are simply to operate the hand primer.

Thinking about it I'm sure that if there aren't any fumes from the exhaust it means that there is no fuel being injected!
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Post by AndersDK »

2 things :

The glowplug should not just evapourate fuel when fed +12V from battery.
It should literally glow white hot (in fact like a bulb) - meaning you can not hold the plug in your hand connecting it to a battery feed. 1 bad + 3 good plugs would start an otherwise good diesel engine. But the idle will be very rough the first few minutes. Each plug consumes some 10-12 Amps from the battery. By Ohm's law this is 12V * 10A = 120 Watts.

Fuel from the pump will not look like under pressure if left open. Its a rather small quantity of fuel under high pressure injected during an injection cycle. But some smallish squirting should be seen in open.

I'd go by jeremy and prime the pump - over several attempts. Then run the starter with the 4 fuel line unions loosened at the injectors to vent the system.
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Post by jgra1 »

thanks Anders..

yes what you describe is what i saw, re: fuel exiting.

Glow plugs got very hot very quick I didnt hang around to see if they got white ;)

will carry on trying with fuel lines open and check the inj pump for bleed options..
if all that fails, check belt timing..

compression 'sounds' good..

John
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Post by jgra1 »

went back to landrover, tried everything suggested.. ultimately all four injector pipes were consistently putting fuel out, just as I would expect, did them all back up.

After turning her over for some time, half burnt diesel came from exhaust

Showing that the glow plugs were burning ok and fuel was getting thru.

Good to see, but means timing must be out by a tooth :(

John
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Post by James.UK »

Hi jgra. When my ZX failed to start (faulty glow plug timer) it produced a LOT of grey mist, so much that I had to walk away from the car to let it clear, :oops: So based on that, it sounds like you may still have air in the system.. :(

Spray a tiny amount of "easy start" into the air intake, and I mean tiny! then turn it over, it should at least fire a couple of times, if it does, then the prob is fuel related..
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Post by AndersDK »

I agree John - you are pretty close now. Tidy up all the work on the fuel piping and plug wirings. Then concentrate on the timing issue.
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