Just purchased a '98 Xantia diesel estate - 39K miles. The breaks do not release immediately when removing foot from pedal. I took it back to garage and they told me that it was a delay related to the hyrdro suspension. Is this correct? The handbrake when applied without foot break releases immediately and car rolls on slight gradient. Can someone tell me this is the delay the norm, or should it be going back again tomorrow?
Great forum - really intesting reading. 'Have still got '93 Pug 405 diesel (from new) with 161K happy miles on.
Xantia Breaks
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JohnD
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Hi Malcolm - Welcome to the forum! I too have a '98 Xantia estate and I cannot say that I've ever noticed any delay when releasing the footbrake. Admittedly, when the front wheel is off the ground there's an awful lot of drag when the wheel is turned, but since the MOT tester doesn't find fault with it, I assume it's OK.
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Dave Burns
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Both my present and previous Xantia's brakes release instantly as do those on my sisters LX TD, in fact I've never known a car of any kind where the brakes did not release the instant you took your foot off the pedal.
They could have air in them or be well on their way to siezing, especially the rears, if the 39k is genuine the brake valve should be ok.
Have you had a Xantia Before or any other Citroen with power brakes, one problem people have is being able to modulate and feather them, because the pushrod from the pedal to the valve is spring loaded it causes some strange braking behaviour, I took the spring out and packed the pushrod up to make it solid, they are now very easey to controll but are also very sensitive, which isn't a problem because you just get used to them, if I were buying another Xantia this would be the first thing I'd do.
Dave
They could have air in them or be well on their way to siezing, especially the rears, if the 39k is genuine the brake valve should be ok.
Have you had a Xantia Before or any other Citroen with power brakes, one problem people have is being able to modulate and feather them, because the pushrod from the pedal to the valve is spring loaded it causes some strange braking behaviour, I took the spring out and packed the pushrod up to make it solid, they are now very easey to controll but are also very sensitive, which isn't a problem because you just get used to them, if I were buying another Xantia this would be the first thing I'd do.
Dave
All the Citroens I've ever owned have been hydraulic suspension types and I have never struck this before.
To me it sounds almost like a brake valve (doseur valve) problem.
Does the car sink fast when parked or can you smell the brakes getting hot under normal working conditions? I suppose that air in the system *may* cause this symptom but I feel that it would also show a lot of other symptoms in the process.
Alan S
To me it sounds almost like a brake valve (doseur valve) problem.
Does the car sink fast when parked or can you smell the brakes getting hot under normal working conditions? I suppose that air in the system *may* cause this symptom but I feel that it would also show a lot of other symptoms in the process.
Alan S
I haven't noticed brakes getting warm. As soon as you move from rest the car the car rolls freely, it's just that initial release.
The car does not usually sink when switched off,it stays up pretty well. However, I did leave it in a car park that had quite a slope -rear of car inclined, the car did sink quickly then, I assumed this was due to slope and car making an effort to balance without power. Is that not usual?
The car does not usually sink when switched off,it stays up pretty well. However, I did leave it in a car park that had quite a slope -rear of car inclined, the car did sink quickly then, I assumed this was due to slope and car making an effort to balance without power. Is that not usual?
Hi, Your car shouldn't sink because it should have an anti sink valve fitted, but that may be because of the incline. Your brakes make be just sticking because you may have new pads on or perhaps the discs may be slightly warped (this may only be a fraction). I wouldn't worry about it really. Perhaps try pressing your footbrake all the way down a few times may release them, or it could be that one or both of your handbrake cables may have been replaced and not refitted back following the same route and may be causing the brake not to release straight away (therefore rubbing the disc)
Just got back from garage. The main mechanic agreed that there was a problem. After an hour and a halfs tinkering he's given me it back. It is improved, but he tells me that it will be a new caliper if I still persist. It feels alot better bringing it home.
Wrinklet1 - it usually stays up, but only went down on a good slope. I'll try some different positions - parking, and see what I find.
Wrinklet1 - it usually stays up, but only went down on a good slope. I'll try some different positions - parking, and see what I find.
Hi Malcolm
Funnily enough my BX Turbo Diesel does something similar.
Especially if the cars been sitting for a couple of days.
Usual symptom is pulling up to traffic lights, lift off foot brake & car sits static then half a minute or so later it starts to roll. This is most obvious when the cars on a slight incline. On steeper hills it move right away, indicating slightly binding brakes. They don't run especially hot but there is definite resistance when spinning the front wheels, front jacked up.
More you drive better it gets.
Alan P
Funnily enough my BX Turbo Diesel does something similar.
Especially if the cars been sitting for a couple of days.
Usual symptom is pulling up to traffic lights, lift off foot brake & car sits static then half a minute or so later it starts to roll. This is most obvious when the cars on a slight incline. On steeper hills it move right away, indicating slightly binding brakes. They don't run especially hot but there is definite resistance when spinning the front wheels, front jacked up.
More you drive better it gets.
Alan P
Just wondering if we can't see the forest for the trees on this one.
I feel that we've all based our assumptions on it being the front brakes or the system in general but on reflection, if the handbrake comes on & off immediately, that takes run out or pad problems in the front brakes out of the equation.
I'd suggest jacking the car up at the rear, and trying the rear wheels for ease of spinning & I'll lay oddsthat's where it is.
I suspect that due to the car being low mileage and assuming much of that mileage has been done in short trips that it could simply be a case of rear brakes starting to cease operating due to lack of use. Normally this means that the pistons in the calipers on the rear brakes stick on an "open" position, however there is no reason, given the correct set of circumstances, that these could be sticking as though they were "almost" operating & simply release as the car moves. It would require the pistons to be removed from the calipers, cleaned & freed up & refitted.
I'd also suggest that the condition of the LHM be checked as the mileage and age is getting close to the stage where this should nearly be done as ageing LHM could also be magnifying the problem.
Check this link as a guide to LHM condition.
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/snippets/lhm_story.htm
Alan S
I feel that we've all based our assumptions on it being the front brakes or the system in general but on reflection, if the handbrake comes on & off immediately, that takes run out or pad problems in the front brakes out of the equation.
I'd suggest jacking the car up at the rear, and trying the rear wheels for ease of spinning & I'll lay oddsthat's where it is.
I suspect that due to the car being low mileage and assuming much of that mileage has been done in short trips that it could simply be a case of rear brakes starting to cease operating due to lack of use. Normally this means that the pistons in the calipers on the rear brakes stick on an "open" position, however there is no reason, given the correct set of circumstances, that these could be sticking as though they were "almost" operating & simply release as the car moves. It would require the pistons to be removed from the calipers, cleaned & freed up & refitted.
I'd also suggest that the condition of the LHM be checked as the mileage and age is getting close to the stage where this should nearly be done as ageing LHM could also be magnifying the problem.
Check this link as a guide to LHM condition.
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/snippets/lhm_story.htm
Alan S
Hi Guys,
with 10 years drioving BX's and a week on a Xantia, I'm inclined to agree with Alan - check the back brakes. Binding is common [my cars often fail MOT because of 'non-working', ie binding 'off'] rear brakes. But you symptoms sound remarkably like a doseur valve failure which, in the later staged of its demise causes the rear brakes to intermittently bind on [except when the engine is turned off] You can check this [if it's the same as the BX] by pulling off the rubber return pipe which runs from the doseur valve [sometimes called brake-pedal valve - the same as a brake master cylinder] to the LHM reservoir, at the reservoir end. With the engine running, little or no LHM should flow out. If it does, the valve is dying.
with 10 years drioving BX's and a week on a Xantia, I'm inclined to agree with Alan - check the back brakes. Binding is common [my cars often fail MOT because of 'non-working', ie binding 'off'] rear brakes. But you symptoms sound remarkably like a doseur valve failure which, in the later staged of its demise causes the rear brakes to intermittently bind on [except when the engine is turned off] You can check this [if it's the same as the BX] by pulling off the rubber return pipe which runs from the doseur valve [sometimes called brake-pedal valve - the same as a brake master cylinder] to the LHM reservoir, at the reservoir end. With the engine running, little or no LHM should flow out. If it does, the valve is dying.
It's air in a brake line somewhere.
On a normal car this feels like a spongy pedal but on a hydraulic citroen it manifests itself as a delay before braking starts when applying the pedal and the reverse when releasing it. Why? Because the air is compressible while fluid isnt. So if you compress the air in the line while braking then close the brake valve you will maintain pressure in the line for a while until the air expands again.
Cure is to bleed the brake lines to ALL 4 wheels thoroughly. If the problem comes back you could have a leak somewhere allowing air in.
Mark
On a normal car this feels like a spongy pedal but on a hydraulic citroen it manifests itself as a delay before braking starts when applying the pedal and the reverse when releasing it. Why? Because the air is compressible while fluid isnt. So if you compress the air in the line while braking then close the brake valve you will maintain pressure in the line for a while until the air expands again.
Cure is to bleed the brake lines to ALL 4 wheels thoroughly. If the problem comes back you could have a leak somewhere allowing air in.
Mark
The air has very little chance to get into the system (except during the sphere change), because it's under the pressure. The only way will be before the HP pump in my opinion.
But, it could be a nitrogen escaping from a sphere with broken membrane. In the case of rear brakes not releasing immediately, I think the anti-sink sphere is the first to check. It's unlikely that brake calipers or brake valve will start to make problems after only 5 years (despite the fact that the brake valve is too 'gently' designed - especially the lastest, 3 slide valve version). On the other side, the anti-sink sphere is usually not touched first 5 years.
Edited by - alexx on 01 Jan 2003 13:44:44
But, it could be a nitrogen escaping from a sphere with broken membrane. In the case of rear brakes not releasing immediately, I think the anti-sink sphere is the first to check. It's unlikely that brake calipers or brake valve will start to make problems after only 5 years (despite the fact that the brake valve is too 'gently' designed - especially the lastest, 3 slide valve version). On the other side, the anti-sink sphere is usually not touched first 5 years.
Edited by - alexx on 01 Jan 2003 13:44:44