Smokey Joe

walcit · Post by **walcit** » 24 Feb 2006, 15:57

My recent purchase, a 1994 1.9d lx Xantia, is a little smokey and lumpy on start up. I've searched the old threads, but Im still not sure. I've replaced the glow plugs (checked them before putting in), leak off pipes, serviced it, put some injector cleaner in it, etc. The car starts on the button, after the glow plug light goes out. But its very lumpy, and there is a load of smoke that engulfs the car (embarrasing). After about 20 secs, the car runs fine, and there doesnt seem to be any smoke. It only happens if the car is cold, or left over night. It does seem only to be lumpy when the car is rising, and leveling after being left over night (no idea if this has anything to do with it - doubt it though, since reving the car doesnt make it less lumpy). But again, if you wait around 20 secs the car is then smooth. Also I can probably rule out injectors since the car runs fine otherwise?!
Any suggestions would be helpful.
Thanks

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 24 Feb 2006, 16:02

Hi walcit.

What colour smoke is your car producing ?

walcit · Post by **walcit** » 24 Feb 2006, 16:08

seems to be white more than anything

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 24 Feb 2006, 16:27

Well if it were blue/grey smoke, it could indicate that your car could be burning oil.
It could be the valve stem seals. I had a similar problem with a different make of car on initial start up. It turned out that the valve stem seals had gone harder with age. Therefore when the engine was stopped, and the oil drained back to the sump, some very small amount would leak by the seals.

So when started if the car had been parked overnight, the car produced blue/grey smoke a bit until the smoke cleared, shortly afterwards.

Is your car using oil ?

walcit · Post by **walcit** » 24 Feb 2006, 16:33

Dont know yet...havent had it that long!! I'll have to check soon. Any other suggestions?

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 24 Feb 2006, 16:53

How long have you had the car ?

Also how many miles has the car on the mileometer ?

Post by **Peter.N.** » 24 Feb 2006, 20:13

White smoke + lumpy when cold, indicates low compression, assuming all the glow plugs are OK. The white smoke is unburnt fuel due to the compression not being high enough to ignight it. Could be to general bore/piston wear or could be that the valve clearances are tight or non existant. If it goes OK once warm, I would leave it alone.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 25 Feb 2006, 09:42

White smoke is indeed unburnt atomised fuel and can be produced is you deliberately don't start the car properly - for example by not heating after its run for a minute or 2.

It can happen when there's air in the fuel - probably due to late injection due to the air in the injector feed pipes taking time to compress.

I'd start by making sure there's no air getting in the fuel. If its a Bosch injection pump - check the leakoff pipes - don't bither with a Roto-diesel as they just leak and smell but are otherwise unnaffected. Then check all pipes, clipping any that seem loose, filters etc.

Replacing the last section of fuel feed pipe to the pump with clear pipe can be helpful in tracing leaks. As the feed pipes are under suction air gets in and fuel doesn't get out.

Its worth pumping the hand primer till its hard and seeing if their is any difference - if there is its a sure sign of air.

BonceChops · Post by **BonceChops** » 25 Feb 2006, 11:38

I thought burning oil produced a blueish smoke and unburnt diesel produced white smoke. They inject diesel into the exhaust on biplanes at air shows to give the white smoke trail.

davek-uk · Post by **davek-uk** » 27 Feb 2006, 08:53

It's not running on veg oil is it?

Too much veg and a cold morning will have the thing smoking until warm. I agree that it's probably unburnt fuel. Are the revs low - you could also check the coldstart device is working properly.

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 27 Feb 2006, 12:15

BonceChops wrote:I thought burning oil produced a blueish smoke and unburnt diesel produced white smoke. They inject diesel into the exhaust on biplanes at air shows to give the white smoke trail.

Yes, you are indeed correct, and I accept that I replied previously while multi-tasking, and in my hurry to reply made an incorrect statement.

DER !!!

So to clear it up :-

* Black smoke-----Over fueling burnt fuel

* Blue/Grey smoke-----Burnt oil

* White smoke-----Unburnt atomised diesel

I will now edit that previous post so that the facts are correct.

walcit · Post by **walcit** » 04 Mar 2006, 11:59

Tried using the hand primer this morning before starting - it made no difference. Does this show that it's not air?

The car has done 135,000mls and it goes really well after around 30 secs. Its just the smoke and lumpy thing - its really bad when starting from cold. The lumpyness doesnt go straight away - it seems to stay for longer than the smoke - it seems to to miss now and again - but only, say, for a minute after starting. Could I have dodgy injectors? Or just a knackered engine?

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 04 Mar 2006, 12:07

Try running the glowplugs 3 or 4 times before starting the engine.

Does this help? if so, then you have low compression, and the extra pre-heating is compensating for it. As Peter says above, if that's the only thing wrong, then ignore it.

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 04 Mar 2006, 13:19

Is it a random misfiring or one cylinder? - if its one it may suggest a tight valve - which seals when the head expands - ie shortly after starting. I would expect this to show up as uneven cranking on the starter - ie operate the fuel stop lever on the pump then crank the engine and listen.

Have you got a Bosch or Roto-diesel pump? Is the cold start waxstat device working? This device is in the side of the thermostat housing and has a bowden cable leading to the injection pump. The cable lengthens when the engine warms up - and operated an electrical switch and then a timing advance on a Roto-diesel pump and some device on a Bosch. Both are intended to provide a fast idle and clean exhaust on startup. The device costs about £18 from Citroen or did about 4 years ago.

walcit · Post by **walcit** » 05 Mar 2006, 20:25

The pump in the car is the non bosch one. I tried starting it this morning by letting the glowplugs on 4 times before cranking. It made no difference. Smoke everywhere, and it sounded really rough. On startup, the engine makes a rattling, tingling noise. When this noise stops - the smoke stops and the lumpyness stops. Could the timing be out? Although it runs like a dream once warm. It must be a compression issue. Is there something that I can do without taking the engine to bits? Could I do something if I just took the rocker cover off? Is there any additive that I can put into the engine, or a thicker oil? any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

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