Xantia Hydractive Woes

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Xantia troubles
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Xantia Hydractive Woes

Post by Xantia troubles »

Hi,
I have a 95 xantia TD VSX with hydractive suspension, which I am struggling with!
The car seems overly soft to me, regardless of whether you have the hydractive button switched on or not
If you sit in the boot with the engine running, it just sinks, and does not pick up until you get out!
The front is the same, and the whole driving experience has a see saw effect which I am sure is not right.
Prior to my buying it, the car had new front and rear spheres, which I am not sure are the correct ones, would this make a difference?
Whilst I understand what the accumulator sphere does, I note that there is a second sphere, lurking under the radiator on the nearside, and another one in the middle at the back of the car,what are these two for?
Any help would be appreciated, as the haynes manual, as usual, is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike, on hydractive!
Many thanks
Jonathan
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Re: Xantia Hydractive Woes

Post by Mandrake »

Xantia troubles wrote:Hi,
I have a 95 xantia TD VSX with hydractive suspension, which I am struggling with!
The car seems overly soft to me, regardless of whether you have the hydractive button switched on or not
The "comfort/sport" switch only makes a subtle change to the suspension characteristics - the computer always switches between soft and hard automatically regardless of the switch - soft mode for crusing, hard mode for sharp cornering or braking.

What the sport setting does is makes the computer more sensitive to cornering so it switches to hard for lesser corners. (Theres a bit more to it than that, but thats the gist of it)
If you sit in the boot with the engine running, it just sinks, and does not pick up until you get out!
That doesn't seem right! Are you sure ? How long did you wait ?
The front is the same, and the whole driving experience has a see saw effect which I am sure is not right.
Prior to my buying it, the car had new front and rear spheres, which I am not sure are the correct ones, would this make a difference?
Absolutely! The wrong spheres can completely ruin the ride and handling characterstics, as the spheres are what determine the springing and damping rates, and there are a wide range of spheres for different models and model variations.

On a Hydractive model if you think the suspension is far too soft and underdamped (wallowy/unstable) then the most likely mistake would be someone fitting the strut spheres intended for a standard model to a Hydractive 2 model.

To identify if the correct spheres are fitted, try to locate the two numbers on the sphere - the first is a two digit number stamped into the sphere near the filler cap, and is the gas pressure in bars.

The front spheres could potentially be 45, 50, or 55, while the rear ones will be either 30 or 40.

The second number is a long number (about 8 digits) typically starting with a 9 which is printed in black writing - this is the part number for the sphere which some of us on the forum can look up in sphere tables and tell you if they're the right spheres or not.

Check the two on the front suspension struts (you might need a pocket mirror and a torch if the numbers are facing down) and the two on the rear suspension arms. (make sure you use a ramp, don't go under the car without one, and you'll probably need to wipe them clean with a wet rag to see the numbers...)

Also, let us know if the car is an estate or a hatchback.
Whilst I understand what the accumulator sphere does, I note that there is a second sphere, lurking under the radiator on the nearside, and another one in the middle at the back of the car,what are these two for?
Those are the Hydractive 2 "centre spheres". They are switched into circuit in the soft mode to make the ride softer, and switched out of circuit in the hard mode. They don't have damping valves in them like normal suspension spheres do, but there are two damping valves mounted in the block that they are screwed on to.

Actually the one at the rear is located somewhat to the right, (looking towards the front) the one exactly in the middle on a bracket is the anti-sink sphere, which is unrelated to the Hydractive 2 system.
Any help would be appreciated, as the haynes manual, as usual, is about as much use as an ashtray on a motorbike, on hydractive!
Many thanks
Jonathan
If you want to familiarize yourself with the basics of the Hydractive 2 system, I can highly recommend the following pdf file:

http://www.tramontana.co.hu/citroen/citroen%20guide.pdf

(Quite a bit of the Hydractive 2 system is covered in the Hydractive 1 section - the Hydractive 2 section mainly deals with differences between the two versions)

Regards,
Simon
Simon

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Post by bernie »

I agree with Simon's remarks. =D>

The previous owner MAY have had non hydractive (HA) spheres fitted to cover up the fact that your HA system is infact stuck in hard mode. [-(

Both Simon and myself, having the same HA2 system, are working towards getting our respective HA2's working correctly 12000 miles apart ](*,)
3 Fiat 124 Sport 1969x2, 1968
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BUT maybe moving to France
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Post by Xantia troubles »

Many thanks for the speedy reply Simon!
I have been out with my torch, and the part numbers on the front spheres are 96194444,stamped 55 also, and on the rears, which dont look so new to me, are starting with XT 20, and ending in AL-KO,
There appears to be a slight weep from the nearside one also,together with another from what I take to be the height corrector(in the centre at the rear)
The car is a hatchback, by the way.
The other spheres, anti sink, and the two centre sheres, I would wager are original, the accumulator sphere looks of a similar vintage, although it only ticks every 40 seconds or so, so I assume that must be ok?
I sat in the boot for 5 minutes, and the suspension didnt alter, so I presume thats not right!
Thanks again for your help
Jonathan
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Post by Mandrake »

Xantia troubles wrote:Many thanks for the speedy reply Simon!
I have been out with my torch, and the part numbers on the front spheres are 96194444,stamped 55 also, and on the rears, which dont look so new to me, are starting with XT 20, and ending in AL-KO,
I can't check my sphere tables until I get home tonight (tommorow for you guys :) ) but if it has 55 bar spheres on the front then I fear they are the wrong spheres without even checking the part number.

The front spheres should be 45 bars for the 450cc (cubic centimetre) version of the spheres, or 50 bars for the 400cc version. 55 will definately be spheres for a standard non-hydractive model, (Perhaps someone with a sphere table handy will be able to look it up sooner than me to confirm this) and assuming the centre sphere is working ok, it would indeed make the ride much too soft and floaty....I've tried it before to see what would happen :lol:

I don't recognise the numbers you've given for the rear spheres, they're obviously 3rd party ones, perhaps someone else on the forum recognises the numbers and can let you know what they are as here in NZ 3rd party spheres are not generally available.
There appears to be a slight weep from the nearside one also,together with another from what I take to be the height corrector(in the centre at the rear)
The car is a hatchback, by the way.
The other spheres, anti sink, and the two centre sheres, I would wager are original, the accumulator sphere looks of a similar vintage, although it only ticks every 40 seconds or so, so I assume that must be ok?
40 seconds is not great, but its not bad either. As bernie suggests, its possible the centre hydractive spheres are flat/punctured, and that somebody has tried to compensate by putting softer standard spheres on the struts.

If you get the right spheres for the struts you may then find the ride too hard until the centre spheres are replaced as well. (Assuming that is the case.... hard to say at this stage)
I sat in the boot for 5 minutes, and the suspension didnt alter, so I presume thats not right!
Thanks again for your help
Jonathan
Definately not right.

Does it lift up when you start it in the morning ? Does it respond to the manual height control ?

Regards,
Simon
Simon

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Post by Mandrake »

Mandrake wrote:
Xantia troubles wrote:Many thanks for the speedy reply Simon!
I have been out with my torch, and the part numbers on the front spheres are 96194444,stamped 55 also, and on the rears, which dont look so new to me, are starting with XT 20, and ending in AL-KO,
I can't check my sphere tables until I get home tonight (tommorow for you guys :) ) but if it has 55 bar spheres on the front then I fear they are the wrong spheres without even checking the part number.
Ok,

Just checked my sphere table and confirmed my suspicions -

96194444 is a front sphere for a post-1996 NON-Hydractive 2 Xantia, with a urepan diaphram, 400cc, 55 bars, with a 1.5mm damper bypass hole.

This will DEFINATELY give you a ride that is too soft and floaty to the extent of the car feeling wallowy and unstable, if the centre hydractive sphere is also working.

The correct front strut spheres for a pre-1996 Hydractive 2 model like yours is either:

96194441 - Urepan diaphram, (cheaper) 400cc, 50 bars, 0.6mm damper hole, or
96199316 - Multilayer diaphram (long life sphere) 450cc, 45 bars 0.6mm damper hole.

A sphere for a post-1996 model is also a close match, and should give a *slightly* softer ride than the one that came with your car when new -

96238949 - Multilayer diaphram (long life sphere) 450cc, 45 bars, 0.7mm damper hole. (This is the exact type on the front of my 1997 model)

Unfortunately I don't have any info on the codes you've given for your rear spheres.

The original Citroen part numbers for the rear corner spheres are:

96154593 - desmopan diaphram, 400cc, 30 bars, 0.5mm damper hole, or
96194435 - urepan diaphram, 400cc, 30 bars, 0.5mm damper hole.

You could tell if they are (probably) the right or wrong equivalents however, by checking the diameter of the damper bypass hole - it requires depressurizing and removing the sphere, (so only do that if you're reasonably confident on doing that - perhaps read up on the procedure on the forum before attempting it....) and in the middle of the valve is a tiny hole which you need to measure.

The easiest way if you have a a selection of tiny drill bits (0.5 to 1.2mm) is to simply find the closest match when trying to insert a drill bit and measure the drill with a micrometer or vernier caliper.

The correct sphere should have a hole that is 0.5mm, (or 0.6mm for a post-1996 sphere, which is near enough) and the wrong type will have a hole size somewhere between 1.0mm and 1.25mm.

(Yes, it's hard to believe, but those tiny differences in the size of a tiny hole really do make a HUGE difference to the damping!)

Regards,
Simon
Simon

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Xantia troubles
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Post by Xantia troubles »

Hi Simon,
The car is not exactly speedy at picking itself up in the morning, although strangely, after the first start up, it appears to be quicker the next time you start it!
It does respond to the manual height adjustment, but again, it seems to take a long time to do this!
I fear this is not going to be an easy fix!
I spoke to the citroen agent, who could not cross reference the sphere part number, so I am still non the wiser as to if they are right or wrong, so if you could shed any light on this I would appreciate it
Many thanks again
Jonathan
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Post by Mandrake »

Xantia troubles wrote:Hi Simon,
The car is not exactly speedy at picking itself up in the morning, although strangely, after the first start up, it appears to be quicker the next time you start it!
It does respond to the manual height adjustment, but again, it seems to take a long time to do this!
I fear this is not going to be an easy fix!
Don't panic, it could be something simple like a crack in the pump inlet host causing an air leak.... have a look at some of the recent message threads reagarding air leaks...
I spoke to the citroen agent, who could not cross reference the sphere part number, so I am still non the wiser as to if they are right or wrong, so if you could shed any light on this I would appreciate it
Many thanks again
Jonathan
Do you mean the rear spheres or the front ?

If they can't cross reference the Citroen part numbers on the front spheres then maybe you need to try another Citroen "agent" as those numbers are in the service manuals which they should have :wink:

If you mean the back ones, then the only way to know would be to measure the hole size as I describe, or just blindly replace them with known good ones...

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
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Post by samtronic »

AL-CO is a Spanish manufacturer of shock absorbers and suspension spheres.

Here is a list of their spheres listed by Citroen model:
http://www.al-ko.es/pdf/turismo/marcas/ ... sferas.pdf

And here a cross-reference:
http://www.al-ko.es/pdf/turismo/lesferas.pdf


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