Help! Xantia front suspension pipe split

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

User avatar
AndersDK
Posts: 6060
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
Location: Denmark
My Cars:
x 1

Post by AndersDK »

Mandrake wrote:
AndersDK wrote:Except for the exact bends & run - this pipe installation is the same for the BX.
Hi Anders, which one are you refering to ? The 1.9TD one where it runs around the outside and back towards the middle again ?

Regards,
Simon
Yes ? - all BX'es have the same pipe run here. Strange - but despite the many years of BX in production - there are very few variants of installations. Opposite the Xantia.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
Online
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

RichardW wrote:Failure of that pipe is common where it is clamped to the inner wing. The one on Simon's Dad's car has clearly already been replaced, but it has not been routed properly - which is probably why it has failed again. According to pr.net there is only 1 pipe for all non-hydractive / Activa cars with anti-sink (except those with ML5 transmission) - so I guess it should follow the same route as the TD.
Hmm, interesting... I wonder how Terry's pipe came about then ? Thats also what our S/H parts supplier said - that there were only two versions of the pipe and the difference was at the end that connects under the tank. (Anti-sink vs not I guess, as the anti-sink valve is where this one terminates)

The 1.9TD I photographed is a 1993 non-antisink by the way.
David Woolllard recommends replacing that pipe when changing the clutch, as it is much easier to route with the box, and all the gubbins out of the way. It should run down inner wing, and then in the channel with all the other pipes across the back of the engine.
Yikes :( So is it possible to route the pipe correctly with the engine in the way ? It looks kind of tight in there...
There is no problem with running the pipes in Kunifer rather than steel - most repipes are done this way, and most aftermarket brake pipes are made of this - but it should follow the original route, and be properly supported (unlike this one was!).
You guys still seem to be labouring under the idea that it will be Kunifer (which is a copper alloy) when its not, its clearly plain thin wall copper on this bodge job, as its as soft as anything, and cracks easily. Even if it was routed properly it would fail IMHO.

Dad has been working on Citroen's since the DS's came out (now retired) and he has never heard of Citroen using copper or copper alloys for the hydraulic pipes, and as far as we're concerned copper isn't up to the job. If after market people want to supply copper pipes thats up to them :wink:

It may be used for some conventional brake pipes, but remember that (a) conventional brakes operate at MUCH lower pressure and (b) the metal brake lines in most cars never have to bend, they use rubber hoses for the bending areas.

Compare that with the strut operating up to 170 bars, and continuously flexing with every bump and steering movement, and its easy to see you need something that can take repeated flexing without bending past its yield point, and also handle very high pressures. (Small hole, thick wall)
On the other hand it should be readily available from the dealer, as it needs frequent changing - although whether this is true in NZ is not so clear....
If we tried to get a new one we'd be waiting weeks, and then be told sorry they can't supply it. Yes, they really are this bad over here. I still havn't been able to get a plastic height corrector clip and I've been trying for over a month. When I enquired about new front hydractive strut spheres a few months ago I was told that Citroen NZ had one (1 !!!) in stock and a second one would take 3 weeks... :evil: (never mind that they then wouldn't be a matched pair)

Instead I ended up getting a 4 year old S/H pair from the same breaker I mentioned for half the price and they are exactly on pressure and working fine. (They are the long life multi-layer spheres)

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2115
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 36
Contact:

Post by Clogzz »

Mandrake wrote:Hmm, interesting... I wonder how Terry's pipe came about then ? Thats also what our S/H parts supplier said - that there were only two versions of the pipe and the difference was at the end that connects under the tank. (Anti-sink vs not I guess, as the anti-sink valve is where this one terminates)
The end connecting under the tank being the difference ?
Don't they all have an anti-sink at the front ?
The car was sold new in Canberra in September 1995.
For in case there are any deductions to make from it, here is the VIN number: VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].

The diesel with the pipe around the outside probably also has it clamped to the inner wing, and it looks like it's been holding out since 1993.
When my pipe broke, they said that there wasn't a new one anywhere in Australia.
Then they asked the pipe benders :lol: and flarers to make one, but nobody within reach of there was doing that thin size back then.
So, they silver soldered it, and it’s been good ever since.
Mandrake wrote:Yikes :( So is it possible to route the pipe correctly with the engine in the way ?
The clamps for the original pipe must still be there.
Maybe clamp the new pipe into place with a wooden extension stick ?
2002 C5 2.0i AL4 230,000 km 76372389
Online
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

Clogzz wrote:The end connecting under the tank being the difference ?
Don't they all have an anti-sink at the front ?
No, anti-sink was only introduced some time in 1994. (December 1993 or mid 1994 depending on what source you believe) The 1.9TD I took the second photo from doesn't have anti-sink, it has the high output single output pump and FDV like a BX.
The car was sold new in Canberra in September 1995.
For in case there are any deductions to make from it, here is the VIN number: VF7**************[VIN obfuscated, can be read by forum staff].

The diesel with the pipe around the outside probably also has it clamped to the inner wing, and it looks like it's been holding out since 1993.
Yes, its clamped to the inner wing same as the other side, and after inspecting the pipe it looks in perfect condition, and its probably original.
When my pipe broke, they said that there wasn't a new one anywhere in Australia.
Then they asked the pipe benders :lol: and flarers to make one, but nobody within reach of there was doing that thin size back then.
Yep, that sounds like Citroen on this side of the world!! So much so that I wouldn't even bother to check with them if they had a pipe, its so unlikely they will.

It's not actually that hard to do the bending and flaring, we've done it before, but its a matter of having a long enough length of good pipe to work with, which we dont, yet.
So, they silver soldered it, and it’s been good ever since.
Unfortunately in this case because the pipe is completely wrong, wrong material and wrong routing, any kind of join isn't going to last.
The clamps for the original pipe must still be there.
Maybe clamp the new pipe into place with a wooden extension stick ?
I'm sure the original clamps will be there - looks like they are just those multiway plastic clips, but the difficulty may be seeing what you're doing behind the engine...

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
Online
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

Success!

Unfortunately our breaker couldn't supply exactly the same pipe (in terms of bend locations etc) and it actually ended up getting rolled up and sent in a box anyway. :evil:

So we had to custom bend it to fit. Also we spent nearly an hour trying to figure out where along the back of the engine the pipe ran without success - there were simply NO empty clips in the hydraulic pipe grouping, although there was sign on one of them of a possibly snapped off extended support.

In the finish I ended up moving the bonnet pull cable slightly and routing the pipe through the three clips that originally held that. I also ended up manually bending the pipe around the strut unit to the same S bend shape as the one shown in the 1.9TD picture, so there should be plenty of flexibility there. The steel pipe is MUCH stronger (than copper) and yet quite maleable and easy to bend into shape without damaging.

What started out looking like a nearly impossible job (when the pipe arrived all rolled up, and we couldn't find where the original pipe must have been routed) ended up being not too bad after all, and the car is back in operation again. :)

Thanks for the help people. (Completed one day before Christmas :) )

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
Clogzz
Posts: 2115
Joined: 15 May 2005, 18:04
Location: Australia
My Cars:
x 36
Contact:

Yippee !

Post by Clogzz »

ImageImageImage
2002 C5 2.0i AL4 230,000 km 76372389
Post Reply