Xantia - 205/60/R15 or 195/60/R15 ?

This is the Forum for all your Citroen Technical Questions, Problems or Advice.

Moderator: RichardW

Post Reply
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Xantia - 205/60/R15 or 195/60/R15 ?

Post by Mandrake »

Hi All,

Just trying to decide on some new front tyres for my Xantia (15 inch alloy rims) and over here at least there aren't that many choices of Michelin available (supposedly due to many of the other types not liking our harsh chip surface roads) and its come down to choosing between Energy MXV8 or Energy XM1. (I'm leaning towards the latter)

Its a Hydractive 2 model and I'm a somewhat "spirited" driver around corners, so I've worn both shoulders on both front tyres in only a few months, although they are only el-cheapo (brand name never heard of before) 185/65's that were on the car when I got it and were resonably worn already, so they weren't great tyres to begin with.

I don't think 185's have enough rubber area for spirited cornering on a Xantia, (especially a Hydractive 2) and in my experience on previous cars I find manufacturers usually fit tires that are one to two sizes too small from "optimal" on their midrange models, so I want to bump them up to 195 or 205.

My Dad's Xantia has 195/60/R15 on the front and even that small increase makes a very large improvement to the grip at the front - much more neutral handling with almost no understeer.

Originally I was thinking of 205/55 but 55's arent available on the XM1, and the MXV8 is somewhat expensive and also has a very rounded shoulder profile which I don't like. (The 205 MXV8 has the same effective contact width as the 195 XM1 because of this difference in shoulder profile)

So I'm now trying to weigh up 195/60/R15 vs 205/60/R15 in the XM1.

My main concern is, is 205/60 going to be too big for a Xantia that came with 185's ? In terms of wheel arch clearance etc ? Did models like the petrol turbo that came with 205/60 standard have any differences in the wheel arch to allow for it ?

Will it make the steering too heavy ? (My steering is already quite a bit heavier than my Dad's Xantia, for reasons unknown, despite having smaller tires than his 195/60's)

What about tyre scrubbing during full lock turns, which is a bit of a problem on Xantia's to begin with due to the McPherson strut geometry, I assume a wider tyre will only make this worse ? (But if so, is that a cause for concern ?)

As far as gearing goes, will a 1% difference in diameter make any noticable difference in gearing and acceration ? The diameters of the tires are:

185/65/R15 - 621mm
195/60/R15 - 615mm
205/60/R15 - 627mm

So the 195 gives me a 1% reduction in diameter compared to standard, while the 205 gives me a 1% increase. Either way, not enough to worry about for gearing ? (1% speedo accuracy difference is better than the likely speedo accuracy too)

What I'm basically looking for is significantly more grip than I have now, especially in cornering, and have a tire that will hopefully last longer without wearing on the edges from cornering, but at the same time I don't want a harsh ride...grip in the wet is also important to me too, as the crappy tyres on the front at the moment have next to no grip in the wet...

One last question, if I leave the 185/65/R15's on the back for now (both of which have good tread depth) will having tyres two sizes bigger on the front cause any risk of biasing the car into oversteer ?

Any comments before I take the plunge ? :) (Especially from people that have tried any of the above tyres, or have tried changing between different sizes)

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
AndersDK
Posts: 6060
Joined: 21 Feb 2003, 04:56
Location: Denmark
My Cars:
x 1

Post by AndersDK »

All you want is more grip on the front wheels - as read from your posting. If you then optimise grip on front wheels using new, larger and supposedly better tires - and leave the el-cheapo with less footprint and less grip on rear wheels - I believe you have answered your own question.
Anders (DK) - '90 BX16Image
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

AndersDK wrote:All you want is more grip on the front wheels - as read from your posting. If you then optimise grip on front wheels using new, larger and supposedly better tires - and leave the el-cheapo with less footprint and less grip on rear wheels - I believe you have answered your own question.
Hi Anders,

It's not quite as simple as that as with a front heavy front wheel drive car you do need more grip at the front to get neutral handling, but two sizes bigger might bias it slightly towards oversteer.

I also didn't say that the rear tyres were el-cheapo, in fact they are earlier type michelins and have good tread depth, its only the front ones that are badly worn el-cheapos.

They will also get replaced by the same size as the new front tyres at some point but probably not for 6 - 12 months, as finances allow, and also I don't want to replace them while they still have plenty of life left in them, unless it is going to upset the handling balance noticably.

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
Rob81
Posts: 90
Joined: 02 Dec 2005, 23:14
Location: Suffolk
My Cars:

Post by Rob81 »

Hi,

For a while I had wider tyres on the front of my old BX - the rears were a poorer quality brand as well. In normal driving (spirited) driving, I noticed no unpleasant handling traits. However, the car was lethal in snow - it would try to swap ends at almost an opportunity. I appreciate that this was partly due to the fact that the BX is so light at the back.

I have also been told that some tyre fitters refuse to fit larger tyres to the front of RWD and FWD cars for safety reasons. Whether this is true or not, I don't know.

I guess you need to give it a go and be prepared to replace the rears if you discover it's too twitchy at the back.

BTW, my neighbour used to have a Xantia VSX on standard alloys and 205 tyres.

Regards,

Rob
Citroen C5 2.2 HDi Exclusive Tourer
Peugeot Boxer 2.8 HDi Camper (conversation)

Previously;
Lots of Citroens including 2CVs, Dyane, Acadiane, Bx, Activa, XM CX and Picasso
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

Hi,

Thanks for that. We don't get either snow or ice on the roads at any time of year here, so that shouldn't be a problem. Water on the roads on the other hand can be a problem, which is why wet grip is important.

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
madmanbob
Posts: 56
Joined: 15 Apr 2005, 21:43
Location: France
My Cars:
Contact:

Post by madmanbob »

My car has also got the 15 inch alloys and came as standard from the factory with 205/60s. I would just change the front ones for what ever size you want and not worry about adverse handling, you wopn't feel it on the road. If there was some strange behaviour in the handling department when you are on the race track, then you can always get some new rear tyres at a later date.
2000 Xantia HDI 110 Exclusive which lives in the Dordogne. Previous: XM Diesel, C3 HDI 92 bhp, CX DTR Turbo2, BX TZD Turbo, CX D, GSA, GSA estate, 2CV
Paul Mi16
Posts: 64
Joined: 15 Nov 2005, 18:23
Location:
My Cars:

Post by Paul Mi16 »

If you have different sizes tyres front to back on your car the larger tyres must be fitted at the rear, to be legal which defeats the object of the exercise. You may encounter trouble with your insurer's if you have accident, Mot man and the Police with this idea. Direct line in the past have considered larger tyres a modification and would not insure anyone who has done this

I would say that you need to change all 4 tyres if you change the size, have a look in you cars handbook for what other sizes were fitted. The final decision on size maybe down to price when you ring round

Paul.
User avatar
np
Posts: 1297
Joined: 13 May 2004, 03:13
Location: Bristol,UK
My Cars:
Contact:

Post by np »

My car had 185/65/15 tyres on it.When they needed replacing i upgraded to 205/60/15`s with no probs at all on clearance,steering etc.The car was a lot better on the larger tyres.On my 2nd set now.
53`406 est SE Hdi 140,110k
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

Paul Mi16 wrote:If you have different sizes tyres front to back on your car the larger tyres must be fitted at the rear, to be legal which defeats the object of the exercise.
Hi Paul,

I've never heard of this before, is this something unique to the UK ?

Here in NZ the restriction is that the two tyres on the same "axle" must be the same size, which we discovered when Dad's Xantia wouldn't pass with a 185 and 195 mixture on the back.

Ironically they don't care if the two tyres are the same tread pattern, or even the same brand of tyre at all, as long as they have the same size numbers... and a completely different brand of tyre with different tread pattern is likely to give more grip variation than two tyres one size different but otherwise the same... :?
You may encounter trouble with your insurer's if you have accident, Mot man and the Police with this idea. Direct line in the past have considered larger tyres a modification and would not insure anyone who has done this
As far as I can see it doesn't count as a modification as there are a number of optional sizes of tyres that came fitted standard on the Xantia and 205/60/R15 is one of them, standard on the 2 litre turbo, V6, and HDi. So I'm just changing from one standard size for the Xantia to another.

If I fitted something like 225/45/R17 (on custom rims) which was a size never fitted as standard, I can see why they might be concerned... :wink:

Regards,
Simon
Last edited by Mandrake on 08 Dec 2005, 09:57, edited 1 time in total.
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
Mandrake
Posts: 8615
Joined: 10 Apr 2005, 17:23
Location: North Lanarkshire, UK
My Cars:
x 664

Post by Mandrake »

np wrote:My car had 185/65/15 tyres on it.When they needed replacing i upgraded to 205/60/15`s with no probs at all on clearance,steering etc.The car was a lot better on the larger tyres.On my 2nd set now.
Thats what I want to hear :) What things did you find better ? And how much of that was new tyres vs bigger tyres ?

Regards,
Simon
Simon

1997 Xantia S1 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive in Silex Grey
2016 Nissan Leaf Tekna 30kWh in White

2011 Peugeot Ion Full Electric in Silver
1977 G Special 1129cc LHD
1978 CX 2400
1997 Xantia S1 2.0i Auto VSX
1998 Xantia S2 3.0 V6 Auto Exclusive
User avatar
Kowalski
Posts: 2557
Joined: 15 Oct 2003, 17:41
Location: North East, United Kingdom
My Cars: Ex 05 C5 2.0 HDI Exclusive 145k
Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k

Post by Kowalski »

np wrote:My car had 185/65/15 tyres on it.When they needed replacing i upgraded to 205/60/15`s with no probs at all on clearance,steering etc.The car was a lot better on the larger tyres.On my 2nd set now.
Does your insurer know? I think technically that makes your car modified, I'd check that if I were you, insurers don't need much of an excuse to get out of paying out on a claim...

Wider tyres will make no difference whatsoever to your grip, if you want more grip you need softer rubber, tyre footprint has little to do with grip.

Larger tyres do tend to be softer because they have more rubber in them to wear so they will last as long as a harder smaller tyre, hence the myth that larger tyres guarantee more grip is born.

Cheap tyres tend to either be made from hard rubber which wears well but gives poor grip, especially in the wet or soft rubber which wears badly and gives better grip generally. More expensive tyres tend to be made of better rubber compounds which wear better for a given level of grip as well as being a lot better in the wet. Some of the tyres Michelin do last very well and give good grip too, something that I've yet to see a cheap tyre do.

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/website/?a ... etest2005/

That's a quite a good comparative review of a few tyres...
Paul Mi16
Posts: 64
Joined: 15 Nov 2005, 18:23
Location:
My Cars:

Post by Paul Mi16 »

Hi Simon

I can only speak about the law in the UK, so I would suggest getting clarification from the appropriate authorities. Having a friend who has a tyre business and several friends who work in the fast fit industry my comments are based on their and my previous experiences.

Unfortunately the UK we suffer from stupid little laws that effect the unwary motorist, and insurance company thay will use any excuse not to pay out in the event of a claim.

Regard

Paul.
primo
Posts: 23
Joined: 06 Sep 2003, 23:28
Location:
My Cars:

Post by primo »

I would have thought that these nuances regarding understeer, oversteer etc., are only at issue when your car is going too fast for safety - mine, in particular - on public roads. Under discussion is a middle market (now obsolete) family saloon, albeit a goodish one. Where is the relevance of how many thousandths of a second you can shave off your time to and from Tesco?
In my experience, 'spirited' can often be translated as 'reckless'.
At the limit in my Xantia, mine or the cars, I haven't a clue what it's going to do, as much because if I AM at the limit it's because I've had a rush of blood to the head and therefor I'm not, by definition, in control. I would think it is much the same for most people.
My, probably unwelcome, recomendation is that you should fit the tyres specified by the manufacturer, slow down, live longer and keep the problem with under/oversteer confined to the Playstation.
User avatar
Kowalski
Posts: 2557
Joined: 15 Oct 2003, 17:41
Location: North East, United Kingdom
My Cars: Ex 05 C5 2.0 HDI Exclusive 145k
Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k

Post by Kowalski »

primo wrote:I would have thought that these nuances regarding understeer, oversteer etc., are only at issue when your car is going too fast for safety - mine, in particular - on public roads. Under discussion is a middle market (now obsolete) family saloon, albeit a goodish one. Where is the relevance of how many thousandths of a second you can shave off your time to and from Tesco?
In my experience, 'spirited' can often be translated as 'reckless'.
At the limit in my Xantia, mine or the cars, I haven't a clue what it's going to do, as much because if I AM at the limit it's because I've had a rush of blood to the head and therefor I'm not, by definition, in control. I would think it is much the same for most people.
My, probably unwelcome, recomendation is that you should fit the tyres specified by the manufacturer, slow down, live longer and keep the problem with under/oversteer confined to the Playstation.
I can see your point of view and agree with it to a degree but if you can improve the grip your car has you're increasing its safety. When a pedestrian steps out in front of you or a car pulls out in front of you the quality of your tyres could be the difference between an accident or being able to keep control of the car and avoid a collision.

Exploring the limits of your cars performance and knowing what the limit is good for safety, it means you know where the limit is and its better that you find the limit under conditions you control rather than in an emergency. If you don't know where the limit is, you don't know whether its safe to be going at the speed you are going at, how could you? If you're familiar with your cars behavior under extreme conditions and how to control it, it could save your life one day, knowing what to do when the car starts oversteering because of a patch of ice etc.
ACTIVE8
Posts: 2317
Joined: 16 Nov 2004, 16:49
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars:
x 6

Post by ACTIVE8 »

Kowalski wrote:
primo wrote:I would have thought that these nuances regarding understeer, oversteer etc., are only at issue when your car is going too fast for safety - mine, in particular - on public roads. Under discussion is a middle market (now obsolete) family saloon, albeit a goodish one. Where is the relevance of how many thousandths of a second you can shave off your time to and from Tesco?
In my experience, 'spirited' can often be translated as 'reckless'.
At the limit in my Xantia, mine or the cars, I haven't a clue what it's going to do, as much because if I AM at the limit it's because I've had a rush of blood to the head and therefor I'm not, by definition, in control. I would think it is much the same for most people.
My, probably unwelcome, recomendation is that you should fit the tyres specified by the manufacturer, slow down, live longer and keep the problem with under/oversteer confined to the Playstation.
I can see your point of view and agree with it to a degree but if you can improve the grip your car has you're increasing its safety. When a pedestrian steps out in front of you or a car pulls out in front of you the quality of your tyres could be the difference between an accident or being able to keep control of the car and avoid a collision.

Exploring the limits of your cars performance and knowing what the limit is good for safety, it means you know where the limit is and its better that you find the limit under conditions you control rather than in an emergency. If you don't know where the limit is, you don't know whether its safe to be going at the speed you are going at, how could you? If you're familiar with your cars behavior under extreme conditions and how to control it, it could save your life one day, knowing what to do when the car starts oversteering because of a patch of ice etc.
I entirely agree with Kowalski on this. If a driver has had the opportunity to find out their or the cars imitations then they are prepared when it happens for real.

If they can get some skid control on a private area off road, even at low speed it will aid their car control in the event of a real skid out on the open road.
Post Reply