Citroen XM suspension problem. HELP!!!

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 29 Oct 2005, 17:33

Greetings fellow Citroen enthusiasts. Last week I changed all 7 spheres on my 1990 XM for new Amtex units, yet I saw little difference with the ride. The old ones, which were original Citroen units, were not completely flat, so it was not that bad to begin with, but still it now feels just like a normal car. I can rarely feel the car floating as it should, 95% of the time it's just not as soft as an XM should be. And I do remember exactly how incredibly smooth the car is supposed to feel, gliding along. Plus I renewed the LHM and cleaned the filter as well, so it should be as good as new. Apart from that, I can feel, see and hear the rear height corrector working overtime, even when the car is moving, often making small corrections to the height at the back, which wasn't happening in the past (if I remember well). Could it be that??? I know the car is not stuck in Sport Mode as I did the trick with the radio on Long Wave 189, and it only switches when necessary.

By the way, for all this work to the suspension I was charged for 2 hours labour. Why do I get the feeling I was ripped off??? Am I right in that?

I am desperate, having spent 240 quid in total.
Any help would be very much appreciated... Many thanks in advance!

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 29 Oct 2005, 21:01

i would go strait back where you had the work done and point out your concern
regards malcolm

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 29 Oct 2005, 21:19

You are very right in thinking this way, however, I bought the spheres myself directly from German, Swedish and French Car Parts. When I actually went to the garage to have them fitted, as soon as I told them that I already had the spheres, they immediately told me that they cannot guarantee this job, since they are not using their own parts. Sad but true...

Thanks anyway!

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 29 Oct 2005, 21:24

ok then i would check to see if they realy fitted your new spheres,because they did not like you supplying your own as they make good profit if they supply them
regards malcolm

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 29 Oct 2005, 22:56

Actually I have already. As soon as I suspected something was not right, I opened the bonnet to have a look, and of course also raised the car to the maximum height to check the rears. They HAVE used my parts, although I can't check the front and rear centre spheres, as they are in an obscure position, and I cannot get access to underneath the car myself. Now there's a thought. But is there a way to check by myself, or will I have to go to a garage to have the car lifted up? Let alone that I saw the underbody photo in Hayne's manual, and I couldn't find the rear centre sphere at all... I wonder where it is hidden.

Also, I am going to die of curiosity. Don't you reckon 2 hours labour is a bit too much for the suspension? Or is it just me? From what I 've read and understood, it shouldn't really take more than an hour, should it???

Thanks again Malcolm!!!!!

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 29 Oct 2005, 23:22

Some problems that could make the ride hard even though the spheres are replaced and the height is correct:

1) Hydractive fault causing the car to be in hydractive hard mode most of the time.

2) Front suspension struts sticking, needing lubrication.

3) Rear suspension arm bearings worn out, needing replacing.

All three problems would cause a ride that is "harsh" and fidgety, lacking that soft floating feeling of the hydractive soft mode, and I've listed them in order of likelyhood.

The first problem is something that could happen suddenly at any time, and is most likely an electrical fault, and would make the ride very harsh and fidgety.

The other two problems are things that would creep up on you slowly over months or years.

The first thing I would do is start trying to diagnose the Hydractive system. First you need to establish whether there is any difference between the hard mode and soft mode in a static bounce test, which will confirm the spheres are ok and the basic switching of the solenoids is working. (At least some of the time...)

I presume being a 1990 that its Hydractive I, not Hydractive II, which I'm more familiar with, so I'm not sure what the soft mode timeout is when the doors are closed and the ignition is off. (it's 10 seconds on a HA2)

The best way would be to locate the Hydractive computer fuse in the fuse box, and use that as a sure way of forcing it into hard mode.

Idle the engine and when the height is normal go to the front and back and do a bounce test and judge how soft it is - in soft mode you should be able to easily push the back right down, and the front at least a couple of inches. It should move fairly quickly when you try to move it.

Then turn the engine off and pull out the hydractive fuse, this will put it in hard mode, then repeat the bounce test. You should notice a BIG difference in the stiffness - both ends should be very stiff and move very slowly when you release them.

What to do next depends on what results you get at this point...so let us know.

Regards,
Simon

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 30 Oct 2005, 01:06

Thank you very much Simon, I really appreciate your interest. I have tried exactly what you said, however, even with the fuse removed, there was no difference at all, it was quite soft both times. Anyway, I do know that my car is not stuck in sport mode, as the trick with the radio revealed to me (I have mentioned that in my first post). In fact, the the ECU is working perfectly along with all the sensors, as it only switches to Sport Mode when it is necessary. Thank God for that, as I might be the only person on the planet that actually loves the XM because of the way it corners, so the Sport mode is vital for me, and actually the switch next to the gearstick is in Sport more than half the time I drive the car, which is usually on very twisty roads. Yet, on the motorway and in the city I always expect the unique feeling that Citroens give you, but that has now disappeared...

Now, I thought about the other 2 things you mentioned, but figured that they are fine, judging from the fact that I do in fact get the floating effect, eventhough very rarely. If the struts and arms were sticky, I suppose they would constantly be in this state. Mechanical malfunctions tend to be permanent, as opposed to electrical or electronic.

Any more suggestions would be very welcome...

PLUS, I WOULD BE VERY GRATEFUL IF SOMEONE COULD ENLIGHTEN ME AS TO HOW LONG IT TAKES TO REPLACE THE SPHERES AND THE LHM (+ CLEAN THE FILTER) TO FIND OUT IF THEY WERE RIGHT TO CHARGE ME 2 HOURS OF LABOUR.

MANY THANKS!!!

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 30 Oct 2005, 02:06

Hmm,

are you sure they changed the center spheres. Either the hydractive valves are not opening or the center spheres are flat.

2hours labour with fluid change sounds fine to me. Certainly nothing to get worked up about (especially if a few of the spheres were a b@stard to get off).

seeya,
Shane L.

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 30 Oct 2005, 11:17

Previous post from Anders on the subject:

Do the Citaerobics !
Its very important after a sphere change job.

Any air (gas) in the hydraulic fluid gives the impression that new spheres have gone flat again.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 30 Oct 2005, 11:25

2hrs labour is definately a fair charge for that job.
As a rule of thumb you dont go buying spareparts yourself - unless you can replace these yourself.
This is because the workshop normally will get a discount on parts (which you can NOT obtain in any way !) because of their high parts turn-over as professionals. Meaning their earnings on the whole job is a bit higher - not ripping you off - if they sell you the parts also.
Not quite true you may think - because you got cheap parts in hands fisrst off. But they will most often use genuine parts to keep up a 100% warranty on the job & parts - which they cannot offer on customer supplied parts.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 30 Oct 2005, 17:25

Thank you all for your advice and your time. I am relieved that 2 hours labour make sense. Yet, I still can't be sure if they have indeed replaced the centre spheres, as it is impossible to see by myself without lifting the car off the ground.

Anyway, next step is to try the famous Citaerobics for several times and see what happens. At least the Hydractive system is working properly, the car gets a lot harder when I switch it myself into Sport Mode.

Actually it has got a lot worse today for some reason. Even worse than before the spheres were changed. It just doesn't make any sense. I am actually thinking that the spheres I got are flat, or faulty. But how can that happen? Especially all of them at once... If it was just a pair it would make some sense I suppose.

Now, I know that people don't tend to get their own parts to garages, but I know that in the UK there is only one supplier of Amtex spheres, so I just wanted to save some money by getting them directly from the source, the same one that they get it from obviously. The garage charges 35 quid for each sphere and 50 for the accumulator (now that is ridiculous, they think we are completely in the dark regarding hydropneumatic suspensions), and I got them all for 20 quid each. I never expected it all to go wrong...

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 30 Oct 2005, 20:16

A grease pit or car lift is the best way of elevating an XM to inspect the underside.
The rear Hydractive sphere on the XM is hidden by a (rusty) metal plate between the intermediate (cross-ways) silencer and the rear axle beam. The plate is (was) held in place with metal clips (that also rust off!). So the sphere is mounted quite high up close to the boot floor.

And Anders is right - do lots of citrobatics to get rid of all teh air in teh system.

//NiSk

Clogzz · Post by **Clogzz** » 31 Oct 2005, 11:34

Gus wrote: Actually it has got a lot worse today for some reason. Even worse than before the spheres were changed. It just doesn't make any sense. I am actually thinking that the spheres I got are flat, or faulty. But how can that happen? Especially all of them at once...

This finding confirms Anders' and NiSk's advice: plenty of acrobatics to expel the air.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 Oct 2005, 17:24

Thank you all again for your help, I really appreciate it. Last night, I did the Citaerobics for maybe 3 or 4 times (normal height->maximum height->minimum height->normal height). I went for a drive right after that and the problem was gone!!! My beloved XM was back to normal, magic carpet ride again.

HOWEVER, today it got hard again, like before... Well, not as bad as before, but it just feels like a normal car again. Bugger!!!!!

At least, now I know that all the spheres are OK, since they worked brilliantly last night. So, now what?

I've read somewhere in the forum that the Citaerobics should be performed for 5 to 10 times. Should I just go ahead and do it some more? Am I right in thinking "the more, the better"?

Or could there be some air "leaking into the hydraulic system"?

Thanks again!!!

406 V6 · Post by **406 V6** » 31 Oct 2005, 17:48

If air leaks into the system, then it's a sphere membrane problem.

Do the citaerobics a couple of times more (minimum->max->min), at least you can rest assured the system is properly lubed up and freed