Track rod replacement, Xantia

Mads · Post by **Mads** » 18 Sep 2005, 01:57

Really did it this time; Broke a track rod ball joint in the track rod [:I](L.H. side)[xx(][xx(][B)]. It was getting late (and dark) so I only manage to see that the track rod ends in some sort of ball joint assembly.. can't find any reference in Haynes re. "Track rod replacement". Can anyone please tell me if this is going to be a problem? What's the procedure for changing it ? pls.pls.pls.
Thanks in advance,

Post by **Peter.N.** » 18 Sep 2005, 13:51

As long as nothing else is damaged its just a question of unscrewing the nut on the bottom of the ball joint, you will then probably need a balljoint seperator to remove it from the arm, then unscrew it from the track rod, noting its position and fit replacement, it would then be best to get the wheel alignment checked.

Mads · Post by **Mads** » 18 Sep 2005, 14:14

Guess I expressed myself a little unclear:
Ball joint is off, no problem. The problem was unscrewing the ball-joint from the track rod; i.e. it broke leaving the tread inside the track rod.
My problem now is how to get it out (I'll try and drill it out, but..) or better replace the track rod. Only, I can't seem to figure out how to get the track rod off the steering rack? Looking in my spare part suppliers catalogue, it seem to be possible to get a new track rod, but how do I get the old one off ??
I'll take the day off tomorrow, so I may go and get the spares I need and get (the wife's !!) car back on the road. Any tips or advice?

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 18 Sep 2005, 17:58

So you need to remove the track rod from the rack and replace it.
I think there may be some threads for BX and possibly Xantia under the topic of inner rack ball joint or something similar. I believe they can be done with difficulty for BX (Alans?) but am not sure about others.
jeremy

Mads · Post by **Mads** » 18 Sep 2005, 23:24

Doesn't sound very encouraging to me. I tried searching the forum, but the only thing which keeps comming up is removal of the compleete rack, and I don't fancy that having the car on axelstands only.
I'll give the drilling option 110%, if unsucessfull I guess I'll have to bite the bullet.

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 19 Sep 2005, 01:05

As long as you measure carefully and do the job well, I don't see why you shouldn't weld the end of a scrap rod in place of yours.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 19 Sep 2005, 01:29

Because any safety check on the car, whatever the Danish equivalent of the MOT is, will fail dismally. Welding a trackrod?!?!? I certanly woudn't drive that car!
What you may be able to do though, dependent on just where the threads have broken, is to weld a chunk of steel to the sheared off bit of threads. The heat from welding will hopefully break any rust etc, and then you can use the chunk of steel to unwind the sheared off bit. I've had this work a number of times in similar (broken off threaded studs etc.) conditions.

Deezel · Post by **Deezel** » 19 Sep 2005, 01:37

Try drilling the centre of the rod and use an easyout but before you try removing it 1st get plenty of heat around it, if it's snapped coming out it must be well seized in [}:)]

BrianM · Post by **BrianM** » 19 Sep 2005, 14:53

Changing the track tod itself is not such a big problem, with it being a L/H drive car I presume that the large gaitor is on the left hand side ( as its on the right hand side on a R/H drive). Anyway, on full lock to the side you are doing it is possible to get up at the balljoint from underneath with a vise grips- a quick shot should be enough to loosen it and then you can screw it out the rest of the way. You will see from the design of it there is some special tool to make the job easier but the trusty vise grips will get you out of bother. The longest part of the job will be getting the gaitor back on correctly !
Brian

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 19 Sep 2005, 18:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">any safety check on the car, whatever the Danish equivalent of the MOT is, will fail dismally. Welding a trackrod?!?!? I certanly woudn't drive that car!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Why not? As long as it's done properly, it will be stronger than the rod, and certainly less liable to give way than the balljoints. Plenty of similar safety-critical parts are welded / brazed during manufacture. If it's a good job, properly fettled, it would be almost undetectable anyway. Alternatively, the rod could be threaded and a longer sleeve fitted to the end - can't be less safe than the original track rod end fitting.

aengus · Post by **aengus** » 19 Sep 2005, 19:03

thing is - would YOU be happy to drive that car after someone unknown to you had done this as a repair??
At manufacture, the quality control and so on 'should' ensure that no defects are present, and said manufacturer then has some liability in the future failure of such product.
When you go and 'bodge' it yourself, you have then made an unauthorised modification to a safety critical part. In this case, no approved QA checks have been done, it is no longer a OE part, and if it does fail, who's liable? You are... Insurance would not be too happy either, if you decided to inform them, and even less happy if it failed and you hadn't told them!
probably a lot cheaper to get a new (or s/h) one than mess about and then have to replace it anyway because you fail the MOT or worse.

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 19 Sep 2005, 19:51

If I know the repair had been done by an expert, professional welder, I'd be quite happy. If he deemed it necessary, he would have X-rayed the joint to ensure that weld penetration was complete, which is more than the manufacturers do (routinely), I'm sure. I woldn't trust my own work though, except in an emergency, as I know my limits[;)]
Of course, if it's easy to replace, that's the way to do the repair, but if it means removing the rack, etc. I'd still consider it. I'd certainly be happier with a good repair than to buy from the manufacturer of droplinks which fail within a few thousand miles, for example!
Sills, flitch plates, etc. are all safety critical - failure could be disasterous in some cases - but the MOT allows welding of those. I'm sure that classic car restorers make and repair a wide variety of components by welding where replacements aren't available, with perfectly good results, and presumably no insurance issues.
IMHO, far too many repairs these days are done on a 'modular replacement' basis, which is bad for the environment and results in 'dumbing-down' of engineering skills.
A friend took a truck to Ukraine a few years ago, and whilst there the rear axle broke due to the potholed roads. A blacksmith was hauled out of the local bar. Having connected his gear to the overhead power lines [:0], he made an excellent repair which not only got them home, but passed several subsequent vehicle inspections in the UK.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 19 Sep 2005, 21:31

The problem here is that a weld is brittle, whereas the original trackrod will be ductile. It would probably be just fine, but imagine a cold morning, when you're half asleep, and you clip a kerb rather hard, and shock load the steering. Rather than just bending a bit, and allowing you to retain control of the car, it would more likely snap, leaving you with no control at all, as you career across the road, killing 3 pedestrians.
The subsequent police investigation reveals that the trackrod had been welded together.
What do you do? Lie, and say you know nothing about it? or say that you knew it was welded, and thus giving your insurance company the ability to disclaim all liability "the car was modified, and we weren't told"
Hardly worth it just for the want of a second-hand trackrod from a scrapped car, now is it?
Repairs to bodywork don't really qualify, as you can have the whole sill fall off a car, and not loose control. I've seen it happen on the worlds rustyest mini.
The main reason for this is that car manufacturers only just make things strong enough to work. They want to keep the cost down as much as possible, hence there is only a very small margin of strength over what's needed. Anyone remember the fiasco with aftermarket lower arms on MK3 cavaliers about 10 years ago? They had 3 less spot-welds than the OE arms, and because of this were failing, and causing fatal crashes.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 19 Sep 2005, 22:27

It is possible to get a weld to be as strong as the original metal, sometimes stronger if there was a fault with the original part, i.e. there is nothing inherently wrong with welding if it is done properly. There is nothing inherently brittle about welds, it depends on the type of welding rods used etc.
Getting it done properly and to the required standard is the difficult part, welding involves heat so that means you'll be heat treating the metal and the other thing you get with welding is shrinkage. You can end up with a weld where parts of the weld are under tension and other parts of the weld are under compression, welding is difficult.
Personally, unless I had a NASA engineer doing the welding, I wouldn't be very happy about my track rod ends being welded up.

BrianM · Post by **BrianM** » 19 Sep 2005, 23:07

With a replacement Tie Rod £12.50 on our hosts web shop the question of drilling / welding etc is pointless. Even if Mads has to buy from the the main dealer in Denmark what is the price safety - his own and other peoples ?
Brian