Today I went and had a look at a 1997 VSX that I've looked at before with the possibility of buying and had a close look at the strut mountings in the wheel arches, after following all the discussions that have been going on here about strut mounting failures, and shock horror, it looks like it has what seem to be early signs of failure. [:0]
On both left and right sides the gator was not attached to the top, not in itself an unusual problem, but on one side the rubber was clearly deformed - the round curved lip part of the rubber block that the gator is supposed to attach to was completely deformed inwards - shaped more like a twisted square than a circle, and it also looked as if it was a bit higher up in the middle than it should be.
In fact it was so badly deformed that even with zip straps it would have been impossible to attach the gator to the top.
Between that curved lip and the outer parts of the mounting there were very obvious rows of cracks nearly all the way around in the rubber, as if it was almost tearing away from the outside, towards the top.
The round lip looked fairly ok on the opposite side of the car but there were less obvious but still visible cracks in the outer area like the other side, so no doubt it was only a matter of time..
Interestingly there was NO rust visible anywhere, in fact the entire car is rust free as far as I could ascertain, and apart from this, and needing some spheres and possibly brake pads the car was otherwise in perfect condition. It certainly looked like it has been well looked after.
Does this sound like what other have seen in the early stages of failure, or do most people only notice it after its too late ?
The puzzling thing is that the car is New Zealand new, so it hasn't spent any time in more humind tropical environments which are thought to accelerate rubber deterioration, and my Dad's 1994 SX is also New Zealand new, and there is no sign of strut rubber deterioration at all on that one...so it was a bit of a shock to see such serious deterioration in an 8 year old otherwise very good condition car in a moderate climate...
Here in New Zealand the LTSA (vehicle registration/testing authority) released a bulletin to car testing stations only a few months ago outlining the strut failure issues, and testing stations are now required to fail the warrant of fitness on Xantia's if they have any visible deterioration of the rubber, (cracks or signs of shear) or signs of rust around the strut, so I'm sure this car would have been an easy fail the next time the warrant is due...(it would have passed last time, before the bulletin was released)
Scary stuff.....thanks to this forum I know to be looking out for this problem, a few months ago I would have probably missed it and found myself in a difficult situation.... [:D]
Regards,
Simon
Failing Xantia strut mounts
Moderator: RichardW
the strut mount can fail because of corrosion to the metalwork, and also because the rubber fails from stress etc. I had one strut top on my XM where the sphere mounting had come into the engine bay by almost an inch, silver metal showing above the black dome. Luckily spotted before it went right through. Car was a bit clonky on high speed roundabouts with lots of lock, but OK other than that.
I put it down to hurdling the speed bumps habitually at high speeds, and then the extra stress of flat spheres, which would have stressed the mounts a fair bit I expect.
regards
dave
I put it down to hurdling the speed bumps habitually at high speeds, and then the extra stress of flat spheres, which would have stressed the mounts a fair bit I expect.
regards
dave
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by j_roc</i>
So are you going to put in a offer on the car? The point of the struts needing replacing, can be used as a good barganing point, even more so if you plan on changing them yourself - saving £££ or should that be $$$.
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At this point the price of the car is already reduced a fair amount from sitting unsold for a few months (it's at a car dealer) and I've basically said that if they can get both strut mountings replaced properly I'll take it for the asked price, but I would rather not get involved in buying it cheaper and fixing the problem myself, as parts over here are very expensive.
The new price from Citroen for the top strut housing with the rubber block is $750 (NZ) each for the "old version" and $1200 for the "new version" but they couldn't say for sure which version the car needs without more info. Compared to the value of the car the risk is too high.
Also they are likely to be able to get the parts much cheaper trade than I can get them. (Citroen seem to put huge markups on parts here, I've seen as much as 100% markup on spheres after I accidentally saw a page from the service agents pricelist book recently [:(!])
From their point of view it will cost them less to fix it themselves than try to give a discount for what it might cost me to get the parts and fix it..
If they can't fix it and sell it for the current price I'll have to keep looking...as yet I'm waiting to hear back after they have the local Citroen service agents look at it...
Regards,
Simon
So are you going to put in a offer on the car? The point of the struts needing replacing, can be used as a good barganing point, even more so if you plan on changing them yourself - saving £££ or should that be $$$.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
At this point the price of the car is already reduced a fair amount from sitting unsold for a few months (it's at a car dealer) and I've basically said that if they can get both strut mountings replaced properly I'll take it for the asked price, but I would rather not get involved in buying it cheaper and fixing the problem myself, as parts over here are very expensive.
The new price from Citroen for the top strut housing with the rubber block is $750 (NZ) each for the "old version" and $1200 for the "new version" but they couldn't say for sure which version the car needs without more info. Compared to the value of the car the risk is too high.
Also they are likely to be able to get the parts much cheaper trade than I can get them. (Citroen seem to put huge markups on parts here, I've seen as much as 100% markup on spheres after I accidentally saw a page from the service agents pricelist book recently [:(!])
From their point of view it will cost them less to fix it themselves than try to give a discount for what it might cost me to get the parts and fix it..
If they can't fix it and sell it for the current price I'll have to keep looking...as yet I'm waiting to hear back after they have the local Citroen service agents look at it...
Regards,
Simon
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by citronut</i>
how much dose that work out in UK sterling,sounds extautionat as over here i by them trade for aprox £73 squid regards malcolm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi,
Approx $2.6 NZ per pound.... yes... genuine Citroen new parts over here are extortionist prices...for example new spheres are about $160ea including tax which works out to 61 pounds.. luckily there are a few good breakers around so a lot of good parts can be had second hand for reasonable prices... but unlike a normal mechanical part I'd be unhappy with a second hand rubber strut mounting block assembly, as there is no way of telling how old it is or what condition the rubber might be in...given the mode of failure...
Regards,
Simon
how much dose that work out in UK sterling,sounds extautionat as over here i by them trade for aprox £73 squid regards malcolm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Hi,
Approx $2.6 NZ per pound.... yes... genuine Citroen new parts over here are extortionist prices...for example new spheres are about $160ea including tax which works out to 61 pounds.. luckily there are a few good breakers around so a lot of good parts can be had second hand for reasonable prices... but unlike a normal mechanical part I'd be unhappy with a second hand rubber strut mounting block assembly, as there is no way of telling how old it is or what condition the rubber might be in...given the mode of failure...
Regards,
Simon
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by citronut</i>
last time i saw cit price for spheres they were about £58 +(-expletive removed-) which is 17.5% regards malcolm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ok, how about this then, from lower suspension wishbone arm for a Xantia - Citroen quoted about $750 NZ (288 pounds) obtained a second hand one for $220 NZ. (84 pounds)
Regards,
Simon
last time i saw cit price for spheres they were about £58 +(-expletive removed-) which is 17.5% regards malcolm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Ok, how about this then, from lower suspension wishbone arm for a Xantia - Citroen quoted about $750 NZ (288 pounds) obtained a second hand one for $220 NZ. (84 pounds)
Regards,
Simon
Thanks to everyone that replied.
The car dealer agreed to replace both top strut mounting assemblies at their cost so I agreed, and yesterday picked up the car [:D]
The new strut rubbers and plate appear to be a slightly different design to the originals and look much more sturdy as if they have been redesigned to avoid this type of failure, and despite the mechanic doing it not being a Citroen mechanic, or even having worked on one before, he did an extremely good job that I can't fault, and I am picky... (He was able to borrow a genuine Citroen service manual from the local service agents though, which no doubt helped [:)])
Although they didnt say what else they did, there is a big improvement in ride at the front as well which makes me think the struts were lubricated or replaced, and possibly the roll bar droplinks have been replaced too. (Perhaps by necessity if they wouldn't let go to free the strut while doing the main job) As far as I can tell the spheres are the same ones, so they're not the reason.
Last time I drove it there seemed to be a little bit of clatter from the droplink balljoints when going over, eg, train tracks, as well as excessive roll in mild cornering, both those symptoms are gone.
Also previously it did the classic lift and lower in a small series of jerks at the front, now it lifts and lowers extremely smoothly. (I will probably still grease the struts myself anyway just to be double sure, as it is so important for ride quality)
Thoughts: overall the car is in imacculate condition, with the following things I'll be sorting out:
* IR keyfob intermitant (fixed already, resoldered dry joints on the main IC)
* Windscreen washer hose damaged (cut in half by the corner of the bonnet due to incorrect routing!)
* "Silly spring" in brake pedal (removed already [:D])
* LCD backlight in radio faulty (hopefully shouldn't be too hard to replace)
* Two interior lights need replacing
* Needs new accumulator sphere, possibly rear hydractive sphere. Main suspension spheres may be a bit low in gas, will know better when I get my sphere pressure tester reassembled and working. I suspect the main suspension spheres may be down to about 70% of their proper pressure. (Just a guess doing a bounce test)
* 139,000Km without history of the cambelt's last change, so will be doing that ASAP
* Will be checking the height corrector height setting, lubricating linkages etc as a preventative measure, although they seem to be working fine
And thats it really...in other regards, just like a new one...engine and motor seem fine, and performance is a lot better than I expected considering its only the 8 valve 2.0i auto. (I take back what I said before [:D]) Paint and body are excellent, interior and seats are like new. I *really* like the Electric seat adjustment of the VSX [:)] (Compared to the awful seats in the SX)
HA2 is new to me, so will be interesting diagnosing the operation to verify it's working properly. The ride is somewhat firm at the back seemingly regardless of the solenoid action, so either a centre sphere or perhaps the solenoid isn't switching properly, will know more in a few days time.
I've read that the whine from the solenoids when you open a door is audible, but I didn't think it was quite THAT audible. When I open a door inside a closed garage the whine is definately quite audible less so if the car is outdoors. Don't have any other HA2 car to compare the audibility of it with to know if it is noiser than normal or not.
Another thing I notice that I'm not sure if its normal or not for HA2 is that height correction is somewhat slower than a non HA2 model, and VERY smooth in movement, both going up and down.
The non-HA2 and indeed a lot of earlier Citroen's such as the CX and GS I find tend to move fairly quickly especially in the down direction when adjusting the height and sometimes overshoot - no chance of that on this HA2, in both up and down the movement is significantly slower and very smooth with no overshoot or normal "hiss" sound either. Is this normal for HA2 ? I'm not complaining, just curious [:D]
It is reliably correcting for height errors of as little as about 10mm so I don't think theres any problem with the height corrector linkages, the delay before acting is about the same as my Dad's non-HA2 but the actual movement speed is at least twice as slow.
(My theory, assuming this is normal, is that in a HA2 the height corrector flow must pass through the damping valves in the HA2 block to reach the suspension cylinders, while in a normal non-HA2 it goes directly to the cylinders....)
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my posts in the past, and helped me to become aware of the things to look for and look out for in Xantia's...(especially the strut rubber issue) after nearly 10 years since my last Citroen (a GS) I at last have one again [:D]
Regards,
Simon
The car dealer agreed to replace both top strut mounting assemblies at their cost so I agreed, and yesterday picked up the car [:D]
The new strut rubbers and plate appear to be a slightly different design to the originals and look much more sturdy as if they have been redesigned to avoid this type of failure, and despite the mechanic doing it not being a Citroen mechanic, or even having worked on one before, he did an extremely good job that I can't fault, and I am picky... (He was able to borrow a genuine Citroen service manual from the local service agents though, which no doubt helped [:)])
Although they didnt say what else they did, there is a big improvement in ride at the front as well which makes me think the struts were lubricated or replaced, and possibly the roll bar droplinks have been replaced too. (Perhaps by necessity if they wouldn't let go to free the strut while doing the main job) As far as I can tell the spheres are the same ones, so they're not the reason.
Last time I drove it there seemed to be a little bit of clatter from the droplink balljoints when going over, eg, train tracks, as well as excessive roll in mild cornering, both those symptoms are gone.
Also previously it did the classic lift and lower in a small series of jerks at the front, now it lifts and lowers extremely smoothly. (I will probably still grease the struts myself anyway just to be double sure, as it is so important for ride quality)
Thoughts: overall the car is in imacculate condition, with the following things I'll be sorting out:
* IR keyfob intermitant (fixed already, resoldered dry joints on the main IC)
* Windscreen washer hose damaged (cut in half by the corner of the bonnet due to incorrect routing!)
* "Silly spring" in brake pedal (removed already [:D])
* LCD backlight in radio faulty (hopefully shouldn't be too hard to replace)
* Two interior lights need replacing
* Needs new accumulator sphere, possibly rear hydractive sphere. Main suspension spheres may be a bit low in gas, will know better when I get my sphere pressure tester reassembled and working. I suspect the main suspension spheres may be down to about 70% of their proper pressure. (Just a guess doing a bounce test)
* 139,000Km without history of the cambelt's last change, so will be doing that ASAP
* Will be checking the height corrector height setting, lubricating linkages etc as a preventative measure, although they seem to be working fine
And thats it really...in other regards, just like a new one...engine and motor seem fine, and performance is a lot better than I expected considering its only the 8 valve 2.0i auto. (I take back what I said before [:D]) Paint and body are excellent, interior and seats are like new. I *really* like the Electric seat adjustment of the VSX [:)] (Compared to the awful seats in the SX)
HA2 is new to me, so will be interesting diagnosing the operation to verify it's working properly. The ride is somewhat firm at the back seemingly regardless of the solenoid action, so either a centre sphere or perhaps the solenoid isn't switching properly, will know more in a few days time.
I've read that the whine from the solenoids when you open a door is audible, but I didn't think it was quite THAT audible. When I open a door inside a closed garage the whine is definately quite audible less so if the car is outdoors. Don't have any other HA2 car to compare the audibility of it with to know if it is noiser than normal or not.
Another thing I notice that I'm not sure if its normal or not for HA2 is that height correction is somewhat slower than a non HA2 model, and VERY smooth in movement, both going up and down.
The non-HA2 and indeed a lot of earlier Citroen's such as the CX and GS I find tend to move fairly quickly especially in the down direction when adjusting the height and sometimes overshoot - no chance of that on this HA2, in both up and down the movement is significantly slower and very smooth with no overshoot or normal "hiss" sound either. Is this normal for HA2 ? I'm not complaining, just curious [:D]
It is reliably correcting for height errors of as little as about 10mm so I don't think theres any problem with the height corrector linkages, the delay before acting is about the same as my Dad's non-HA2 but the actual movement speed is at least twice as slow.
(My theory, assuming this is normal, is that in a HA2 the height corrector flow must pass through the damping valves in the HA2 block to reach the suspension cylinders, while in a normal non-HA2 it goes directly to the cylinders....)
Thanks to everyone who has responded to my posts in the past, and helped me to become aware of the things to look for and look out for in Xantia's...(especially the strut rubber issue) after nearly 10 years since my last Citroen (a GS) I at last have one again [:D]
Regards,
Simon
-
Kowalski
- Posts: 2557
- Joined: 15 Oct 2003, 17:41
- Location: North East, United Kingdom
- My Cars: Ex 05 C5 2.0 HDI Exclusive 145k
Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mandrake</i>
Ok, how about this then, from lower suspension wishbone arm for a Xantia - Citroen quoted about $750 NZ (288 pounds) obtained a second hand one for $220 NZ. (84 pounds)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
GSF do them new for £72 + VAT, I suppose Citroen UK will probably do them for twice that price.
How do international shipping costs compare with buying bits locally?
Ok, how about this then, from lower suspension wishbone arm for a Xantia - Citroen quoted about $750 NZ (288 pounds) obtained a second hand one for $220 NZ. (84 pounds)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
GSF do them new for £72 + VAT, I suppose Citroen UK will probably do them for twice that price.
How do international shipping costs compare with buying bits locally?
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kowalski</i>
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mandrake</i>
Ok, how about this then, from lower suspension wishbone arm for a Xantia - Citroen quoted about $750 NZ (288 pounds) obtained a second hand one for $220 NZ. (84 pounds)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
GSF do them new for £72 + VAT, I suppose Citroen UK will probably do them for twice that price.
How do international shipping costs compare with buying bits locally?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'd say international shipping would be extremely expensive for something as heavy and large as the lower front suspension arm - prohibitively expensive in fact.
It might be a bit more worthwhile with spheres though.
Regards,
Simon
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mandrake</i>
Ok, how about this then, from lower suspension wishbone arm for a Xantia - Citroen quoted about $750 NZ (288 pounds) obtained a second hand one for $220 NZ. (84 pounds)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
GSF do them new for £72 + VAT, I suppose Citroen UK will probably do them for twice that price.
How do international shipping costs compare with buying bits locally?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I'd say international shipping would be extremely expensive for something as heavy and large as the lower front suspension arm - prohibitively expensive in fact.
It might be a bit more worthwhile with spheres though.
Regards,
Simon