Stiff steering

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 27 Jun 2005, 01:14

Now the Xantia is partially done, I want to get back to my car - a Renault Clio 1.4 RT 1993 petrol with no power steering.
Driven two other Clios about same age and know that their steering was very light compared to mine. Some find it exhausting to drive (me included actually, and my mother hates driving it), and despite all my efforts, I can't work out what the trouble is.
When still, the steering is very heavy/stiff, I know it will be to some extent, but it's only a small car and shouldn't require quite so much effort... when driving it, it isn't much better, you really have to brace and put some effort into it when taking a sharp bend at lowish speed that requires a fair amount of steering wheel movement.
Few days ago I put new upper strut bearings on both sides. Old ones didn't seem that bad, but had already bought new ones. No real difference.
With car on axle stands, the steering wheel can be turned lock to lock with one finger, so I assumed that the only parts that really have to work harder when the car is on the ground are the upper strut bearings, and that other joints and bearings must be good if the wheel moves freely when on axle stands. Obviously not the case. Maybe my logic was flawed.
Only other thing is the obvious - wheels on ground need lots of effort since you've got rubber pressing hard into ground and not moving without great friction, but now on second tyres of different make and I keep checking tyre pressures are as per sticker on side of door.
So, if the steering wheel spins freely when tyres aren't on the ground, but upper bearings are good, tyres are not under-inflated, the toe-out setting of 1mm is spot-on with equal thread protrusion on each track rod end, and other Clios I've driven are far lighter on the steering, then what on earth is the trouble with my car?!
I know this is for Citroens, but please lend your knowledge and experience to this! [:(]

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 27 Jun 2005, 01:57

Tough one [|)]
Non-Clio or alloy wheels fitted ? - could be wrong offset (ET) then.
Problem could be in the rack itself - i.e. when under noticeable load it tends to lock up in the pinion gear. May simply be lack of grease.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 27 Jun 2005, 02:56

If you try putting something slippy between the wheels and the ground and turn the wheels, you'll be able to see how much of the resistance is caused by the tyres. By something slippy I mean 2 layers of thick polythene or something similar (oil or grease are a very bad idea because it'll attack the tyres and it'll take ages to clean off again).

Post by **Peter.N.** » 27 Jun 2005, 03:32

What sort of condition are your front tyres in? the more tread the lighter, or, it could be the type of tyres. My mother had a Peugot 205 some years ago with horrendously heavy steering, I went to my local friendly tyre supplier, got all he had of that size on the floor and selected the ones with the most easily bendable carcass, the result was much lighter steering.

JohnT · Post by **JohnT** » 27 Jun 2005, 04:00

Kowalski never ceases to amaze me! brilliant idea about the two pieces of polythene. If it aint the tyres then it must be the rack. I had a similar problem and found that when the steering rack was like that it was knackered. I do hope your ball joints are OK? it is unlikely they would create this much resistance. It is much different when weight is applied and stress is put upon the rack? I replaced it, and all was OK.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 27 Jun 2005, 04:14

It's not my idea, just borrowed from somewhere else, one of the bearings they use for bridges to allow them to expand is a couple of pieces of plastic on top of each other. It was either that or the videos of the cars driving around with crates under the rear tyres [;)]

adamskibx · Post by **adamskibx** » 27 Jun 2005, 04:50

Yes thats a brilliant idea but the friction in the mechanics of the steering will increase when the friction of the tyres is increase if its a lack of grease or something like that so even if it felt amazingly light with the wheels on a slippery surface it doesnt necessaraly mean there arent problems in the steering system. However some problems will be picked up like this-A common problem with 2CV's when the chassis is going is that the steering columb takes all the load and the steering gets mega heavy.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 03 Jul 2005, 20:28

Hi again, thank you all for the ideas. My other post mentioned about the brakes on the Clio, and I just wanted to say that a new master cylinder cured the problem. Now pressing hard on the pedal actually makes the car stop! The pedal seems to travel too far down for my liking, but since I only bled the brakes once after fitting the master cylinder, I'm assuming some air may remain in the system so I'll bleed them again and see what it's like. I'm also wondering if the old design of master cylinders considering the car's age - 12 years - means that a good amount of pedal movement with no obvious effect on the brakes may be normal.
Anyway, the steering remains the same even after changing the strut top bearings - it's not too bad on slight bends in the road, but more acute ones are terrible. After the steering wheel gets to a certain point not usually got to when taking slight bends, the wheel becomes terribly hard to continue turning.
The tyres are the correct type for the car and rims are the originals - no alloys fitted, I don't have the money! Tread is excellent as they are fairly new and have seen little use since I've only recently returned to Spain and started driving it.
Haven't checked the rack yet, but something interesting turned up when I took the car for it's ITV (Inspección Técnica de Vehiculos - Technical Inspection of Vehicles) otherwise known as an MOT. It passed, but I was told it had a light fault not enough to fail it, but something I should take it to a garage for when I have the time. Apparently, despite my belief that toe-setting was fine, he said the alignment is out. Now, I was told a short while ago by my brother who used to work in a garage that my tyres looked splayed-out and that that could cause very heavy stiff steering. So, maybe a possible cause has been discovered from the MOT? Thing is, I was sure the toe-setting wasn't out enough to cause such bad steering because the car does not pull to one side at all, although the steering wheel does not centre itself well. Can toe setting be well out and the car still not pull to either side?!
The Haynes manual claims a setting of 1mm toe-out, although it says that straight-ahead alignment is alright if desired. If my brother's views are correct, then it has excessive toe-out, but why no pulling?!
I suppose I will have to take it to a garage since I can't do accurate tracking here.
Then I have to start finding the reason for it lacking power, when it's suppose to boast 80BHP. Slightest incline and power drops out, especially at high speed on motorways where even on the flat it doesn't seem to want to accelerate.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 03 Jul 2005, 20:56

Why would it pull to either side if too much toe out ?
- in fact it will simply have a tendency to brake the car as the tyres are a bit closer to the "broadsiding" point - which exactly gives noticeably heavy steering.
The opposite - too much toe-in - has a tendency to make the steering unstable i.e wander - but with a very light feeling on the steering wheel.
It is however usually a very easy task to correct the toe-out : simply screw out the tie-rods an equal amount both sides. It will be some trial and error until you got it right.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 04 Jul 2005, 04:09

Thanks for clearing up the symptoms of toe-in and toe-out. Well, since toe-out does cause heavy steering, hopefully it may make things better when put right.
If so, I will put it here to help others and let anyone interested know.
Incidentally, what normally causes a gear or more to become hard to engage, requiring a good smack of the gear stick at times to get it in?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 04 Jul 2005, 15:22

Come clean James - have you started a workshop business ? [8D]
1) low gear oil level
2) clutch cable needs adjustment
(often never compensated for extra carpets/mats)
3) wrong oil type
All cars uses 80W-90w gearoil in Europe.

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 08 Jul 2005, 19:21

[:D] No Anders, my trade is electronic repair, I'm just trying to get the Clio going perfectly [^]
A mechanic did the tracking, said it was slightly out and got it spot-on. Steering is a little lighter now. He said that it didn't seem stiff to him (but then he had arms like Popeye, so would anything?!) but there was a problem, because the steering wheel does not centre itself after taking a bend or turn in the road, it just 'stops', as he put it. He reckons the point where the steering shaft meets the steering rack had trouble - sorry I don't know proper terminology for these parts... the pinion or something perhaps?
Anyway, lately first and second gear have been hard to engage, 2nd wouldn't engage at all the other day so had to go back to first and try again - with success.
So, a fair few problems and I just want to get them right. Now the bloody starter has started doing it's 'only clicking gently' thing randomly and rarely. I changed the brushes a week ago which seemed to sort it out but it's back again! [:(] I hate cars.
Thanks for info on gearbox oil, I shall check level and perhaps replace anyway.

marpate1 · Post by **marpate1** » 08 Jul 2005, 19:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JamesQB

[:D] No Anders, my trade is electronic repair, I'm just trying to get the Clio going perfectly [^]
A mechanic did the tracking, said it was slightly out and got it spot-on. Steering is a little lighter now. He said that it didn't seem stiff to him (but then he had arms like Popeye, so would anything?!) but there was a problem, because the steering wheel does not centre itself after taking a bend or turn in the road, it just 'stops', as he put it. He reckons the point where the steering shaft meets the steering rack had trouble - sorry I don't know proper terminology for these parts... the pinion or something perhaps?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It could be a number of things I guess. I'd tend to have a look at the universal joints on the steering column - they could be siezed. Also, check the lower arm ball joints. Jack the front wheel up, grab top and bottom and see how much free play there is. My Xantia steering went very stiff when the ball joint collapsed.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Anyway, lately first and second gear have been hard to engage, 2nd wouldn't engage at all the other day so had to go back to first and try again - with success.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Baulking? Clutch change needed?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
So, a fair few problems and I just want to get them right. Now the bloody starter has started doing it's 'only clicking gently' thing randomly and rarely. I changed the brushes a week ago which seemed to sort it out but it's back again! [:(] I hate cars.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Perhaps a bad earth from the engine - check and clean all earths.
Hope this helps a little,
Mark

AlWilliams · Post by **AlWilliams** » 08 Jul 2005, 20:22

Intersting post.
My mums 95 1.2 clio suffers from exactly the same problem, lovely direct and light steering when new, now nasty heavy steering with no feel prevails.
I had assumed that worn bushes, ball joints, suspension mounts etc could in conjunction cause the problem. I did drive it like a demon when I was much younger[;)] which I thought may have caused this in part.
I'll ask my brother in law to get the toe-in / out checked and have a look at the steering rack.
Thanks.
Al

JamesQB · Post by **JamesQB** » 11 Jul 2005, 16:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'd tend to have a look at the universal joints on the steering column - they could be siezed. Also, check the lower arm ball joints. Jack the front wheel up, grab top and bottom and see how much free play there is. My Xantia steering went very stiff when the ball joint collapsed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Are the lower arm balljoints the ones present on the points of the 'v' shaped lower suspension struts, connecting to the swivel hub?
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Baulking? Clutch change needed?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, I'll check Ander's suggestion of gearbox oil, but I too was wondering about the clutch needing renewal since I don't know when it was last done, if ever. No slipping evident, though.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Perhaps a bad earth from the engine - check and clean all earths.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'll give that a check as well. Originally, it was doing this often. I overhauled the starter twice, the more thorough second overhaul seemed to bring an end to the problem for a while, although I could see that one brush was very low. It then started just clicking again 2 weeks ago and checking the brushes showed that the low one was riding on its embedded cable, so new ones got for £20. Problem seemed to disappear until a few days ago. Hasn't done it again since. Just like when it first started doing this 4 years ago - very rare and random, will go for days or more working fine, and then suddenly you jump in the car and just a gentle click to be heard and the little hammer is needed from the boot. A gentle tap later and the car starts nicely. Always happens where there are plently of people to watch you using a small hammer on your car... [:D]
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Hope this helps a little,
Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thanks for all the advice, I'll let you know how I get on and maybe it'll add more to the equation?!
And to Al, it sounds like my Clio you're describing... maybe there's something that becomes troublesome in general with age which causes the stiff steering? I'm out of ideas and haven't yet got the courage to take the steering rack out or even the steering column to check them, so if you're brother-in-law does find the trouble, please let me know so I can check mine for the same! [:)] I've had the lower suspension struts renewed due to worn bushes, I've changed the upper strut bearings myself and now had the tracking done. Nothing seems to solve it...
Then I have to sort the power issues out - the car gets to around 60mph or so on motorways and then takes forever to accelerate more, and if the road slopes up a bit, then it just won't go faster. Checked the usual suspects like air filter, etc, but no change. Also, in normal town driving there's a noticeable delay or flat spots when accelerating when the car seems to slow for a second before the revs start increasing and that continues as you move the accelerator pedal further down. I don't know what could cause that with an ECU controlled car and monopoint injection (throttle housing with single injector in the venturi, all bolted to intake manifold feeding all cylinders). I can't afford to start replacing sensors and other bits until the problem goes away. I'd much rather be soldering SMD components the size of a grain of rice to tiny laptop motherboards than fathom out cars... [B)]
Anyway, enough waffling. Thanks to everyone so far.
Adios [8D]