2.1TD g/box - repair or replace?

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » 21 Jun 2005, 18:35

At some point I'm going to need to replace the clutch. Whilst the g/box is out, I have thought of replacing the input shaft bearing as the whine it makes is getting somewhat intrusive. The whine is present in all gears and in neutral, rising and falling with engine speed. Becomes more obvious as the unit warms up. Not noticeable at motorway speeds in fifth.
Assuming my diagnosis is correct, is it a relatively straight forward job? I've always shied away from gearboxes (apart from rebuilding the one in my old Vitesse - I don't think it helped[:)]) but am reasonably competent with mechanicals generally.
The alternative is to find a good replacement - might be easier said than done.
Any ideas?

ActivaV6uk · Post by **ActivaV6uk** » 21 Jun 2005, 20:04

ML5t boxes are hard to come buy especialy 2.1s there are only 2 types, one is the diesel variand that is used on the 2.1 and hdi110 but they have diferent final drives the seccond is the one that is on the V6 and the CT again diferent final drives.
Andy

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » 21 Jun 2005, 20:12

Looks like I'll be replacing the bearing then. I am guessing that Haynes will be utterly useless. There was mention in this forum last year of a much better manual, but I don't recall the name. Or does anyone know of any links that will give the inside info on dismantling/reassembley with all clearances etc?

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 21 Jun 2005, 20:55

If you have your gearbox out anyway - just go ahead with the job.
You can in fact use any description of dismantling a gearbox in main shaft & layshaft parts - as all later gearboxes are very much alike.
The rest is some logic and a suspecious eye for anything that may need to come apart.

JohnT · Post by **JohnT** » 22 Jun 2005, 04:14

You are obviously competent at what you are considering, rebuilding the gearbox? The technology has not changed much since your Vitesse. I suggest that if the main roller bearing is the cause then this will be available as a non citroen part ( Timkens etc?). Perhaps you will let us have a detailed post on your adventure if you undertake the repair? Best of luck.

JohnT · Post by **JohnT** » 22 Jun 2005, 04:17

One thought from experience......it is really difficult to put the innards of a gearbox back together again correctly!

Post by **Peter.N.** » 22 Jun 2005, 04:17

It may be possible to remove the input shaft from the front of the box without dismantling, I cant say for sure as I have not done one of these, it depends on the size of the input shaft/layshaft gears.

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 22 Jun 2005, 04:37

I only did a gearbox once, new synchro on 2nd in a BL gears-in-sump 5 speeder. It wasn't particularly difficult but fiddly and time consuming- Haynes manuals had exploded gearbox diagrams then, and also info on gaps and torques etc, but it was hard to source the bits, and I don't think I would do it again unless there was no alternative!
Input bearings normally rumble rather than whine-are you certain thats what it is?

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 22 Jun 2005, 11:59

Isn't the clutch on the Xantia 2.1 TD of the pull type rather than the conventional push type? If this is the case it is more likely that it's the release assembly that is whining rather than the input shaft bearing. I've definitly had this sort of noise from the pull-clutch on my 2.5 TD XM when the clutch was knackered.
//NiSk

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » 22 Jun 2005, 15:53

Thanks for the input guys. JohnT, I agree - very hard to get them back together properly. I've watched someone who knew what they were doing and they made it look easy. Part of the trick with most things is knowing what feels right, as much as what your instruments say.
I hadn't thought of the release bearing - but is the bearing on this setup constantly engaged? In my experience, release bearings either rattle (proven by lightly touching the clutch pedal to exert some load), or squeal when engaged. However, it is true that g/box bearings usually rumble, or produce a 'rushing' noise which vanishes on engaging the clutch.
When the engine/box unit is cold, there is no appreciable noise. After a few miles, the whine becomes more evident increasing to max as the oil temp rises (VSX model - I'd prefer a pressure guage but, hey...). Revving the engine in neutral creates the same symptom as having the box engaged. Hence my focus on the input shaft. It could, of course, be something on the engine itself, but I can't imagine what.
As and when I take on the challenge, I'll keep you posted.

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 22 Jun 2005, 16:07

Here's a thought. It could possibly be the idler bearing in 5th gear (between the gear and the shaft). This does not rotate when 5th is selected, and so could be the bearing that is making noise. If so, then that's a whole lotta work to change, and getting a PSA gearbox back together is indeed an utter utter nightmare. The gears themselves aren't the problem, it's the selector mechanism.
I've had several Land-Rover gearboxes apart to their component pieces, and rebuilt them. Also a couple of VW Beetle boxes apart, so I'd like to think I have a fair idea of how to put a gearbox together, but having pulled a BE box apart, you need 5 hands and 23 fingers to get it all back together. Not fun at all.
To be honest, you're probably better off getting a 'box from a scrappers. If it's a decent scrappie, they usually offer 1-3 month warranties with their major parts, so at least if it turns out to be a duff one you can take it back or get your money back.

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » 22 Jun 2005, 16:56

The idler gear sounds like the sort of thing that would produce the symptoms. I'll have to do a road test later this week and see if engaging fifth always reduces the noise, irrespective of roadspeed. It that is so, I'll start looking for a price on a replacement 'box, to get a feel for the options. Are the 'boxes from the XM TD12 interchangeable with the Xantia?

jeremy · Post by **jeremy** » 22 Jun 2005, 17:45

First - Its full of oil isn't it?
secondly - many people have obtained very good results with Slick 50 and other additives. There are probably some posts on the subject.
Much easier and cheaper than a rebuild.
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=1474
Jeremy

Johnno · Post by **Johnno** » 22 Jun 2005, 17:55

Aha! Jeremy, you clearly know me. I had already bought some Molyslip some while ago and intended to see if liquid engineering would buy some time. But have you seen the filler plug on this 'box??? It's in about the most dia-bleeding-bolical place it could be! I sometimes think the French have never forgiven the English for having a bigger empire and they inflict Citroens on us in revenge[}:)]. I'll try again this weekend, after the Lions beat the All Hacks (and that's from a born and bred Kiwi! Super 12 nonsense - if you don't want to contest the scrum, go and play League[;)]) by running a tube from the filler up through the engine bay.
Ciao.