xantia trailing arm nightmare

mark g · Post by **mark g** » 20 Jun 2005, 17:11

Hi everyone.
I have an "L" reg xantia which started sqeeking and doing the splits with its rear wheels. Thanks to the site it was diagnosed correctly as rear trailing arm bearings. However when the garage took out the bearings to replace them the trailing arms had been damaged badly by the old bearings eating into them! The garage have told me that they can't fit the new bearings as the "race" won't fit and they'll just get more damaged. I rang citroen who wanted £300+ per side for new arms, so I called around. I finally found some arms from a well known source who sent them only to find that when they arrived they were the wrong sort (ABS my car doesn't have abs and bigger calipers etc) They sent another pair which have arrived today. The garage have taken out the old bearings in the "new" pair only to find that they are also badly chewed by the bearings! I've asked for another set from the supplier and we shall see but.....
Does anyone know a fix that will let a worn arm can accept the new bearings without it causing damage and ending up with the wheels looking like this /\ and that doesn't result in rear wheel steering?
Sorry this post is so long, Thanks

ghostrider · Post by **ghostrider** » 20 Jun 2005, 17:41

Hi mark,
There are various fixes for this problem depending on your facilities, if you have a lathe and milling machine you can ream out the arm so that it is round again then turn a bush to be an interference fit in the hole, or you could build it up with weld and then line bore it back to size.
A lower tech solution that has worked for me is to clean everything and then use Chemical metal to restore the housing put a Very thin smear of grease on ther outer race and slide into position, once the chemical metal has hardend, push the outer race out, clean up any excess on the inside and then refit the bearings as per the link to the permanent fix http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=9869.
Exchange arms are available from GSF & Pleiades if you don't fancy any of the above, S/H arms are always a gamble as this is a cit/pug design fault that has been religiously carried forward across succeeding generations of these cars going all the way back to the GS Circa 1970!!! [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] ( maybe even the DS? although I don't remember having any probs with it) Does it apply to the C5 or C4? I'll be surprised if it doesn't [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] after all if you've been doing it wrong for 30 years why change the habits of a lifetime[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]
Pete

ghostrider · Post by **ghostrider** » 20 Jun 2005, 17:47

Hi that link should be http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=9972 sorry about that
Pete
________
Ford Atx Transmission Specifications

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 20 Jun 2005, 17:52

It's a very good simple design. The problem being they appear to get moisture past the seals.
He should be able press in new bearing races. However the seals themselve won't seal against the chewed up arm. You could just use some epoxy resin to fill the marks and sand it flat so the seal can seal against it.
Personally I think the seals are hopeless anyway. Just fit some grease nipples to the arms and give 'em a squirt of grease at each oil change. If the arm void is full of grease, it can't have water/salt in there, so the bearings should last dramatically longer (this is what I've done with my CX).
seeya,
Shane L.

Mandrake · Post by **Mandrake** » 20 Jun 2005, 19:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ghostrider
Exchange arms are available from GSF & Pleiades if you don't fancy any of the above, S/H arms are always a gamble as this is a cit/pug design fault that has been religiously carried forward across succeeding generations of these cars going all the way back to the GS Circa 1970!!! [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] ( maybe even the DS? although I don't remember having any probs with it) Does it apply to the C5 or C4? I'll be surprised if it doesn't [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] after all if you've been doing it wrong for 30 years why change the habits of a lifetime[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]
Pete
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't agree with this - the GS (and DS) doesn't suffer from the same rear arm bearing failure that the CX and some later models suffer from... I've personally seen several GS's that are nearing 30 years old that have completely disintegrated in terms of body rust etc, and the rear suspension arm bearings are still fine, and original.
The big problem with the bearings in the CX is:
(a) Not enough grease during factory assembly and/or poor sealing of seals letting grease escape
(b) Too much offset between the bearing location and the wheel track, (bearing is a long way inboard compared to the wheels) which means the weight of the car is applying a constant twisting force on the bearing, wearing it out prematurely, although with plenty of grease it will last a long time.
On the GS the arm is much closer to parallel, with the bearings nearly in line with the wheel, so very little twisting moment can be applied to the bearing - also the needle roller bearings for the rear arms are integrated into the rollbar assembly, so the left and right arm pivots are connected directly to the roll bar, and the roll bar eliminates any remaining twisting moment that would be on the bearings leaving only sideways (relative to the bearing) thrust.
Why they didn't continue to design them like this is beyond me...
Regards,
Simon

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 20 Jun 2005, 23:33

As long as the inner race of the bearings still seats good in the arm - there is no reason to have the chewed out metal replaced with any hard material.
Pete has done it with Chem metal - others have used body filler - I have tried silicone rubber. With good results. All that is needed is that the inner bearing race provides the necessary fixing forces to the arm - the rest is really only needed for sealing off the bearings.
AlanS' description mentioned above is well and truly by far the ultimate service solution. The same AlanS earlier had a photo series showing a grease nipple fitted external to the arm. This also proves to work extremely well - although not that elegant.

mark g · Post by **mark g** » 21 Jun 2005, 00:34

Thanks for your replies everyone. I have been told that the "race" will not fit properly. The metal is eaten away at the top of the casing ie at the top of the hole where the bearing slides into. The tought of using chem metal interests me but will it withstand not only the weight of a car on it but also the bearing going in and being tightened?
Please excuse me if this doesn't make sense as I'm exactly sure how this all fits together.
Mark

mark g · Post by **mark g** » 21 Jun 2005, 00:37

Sorry my English went off somewhere then. I should have said "thought" instead of tought and Obviously I'm NOT sure how this all fits together!
Mark

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 21 Jun 2005, 01:30

Amongst BX DIY owners this japanese article on rear arm bearings is wellknown :
http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~ynar/bxorg_a ... /m07e.html
This picture from the same article shows the bearings and seals in the arm :
http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~ynar/bxorg_a ... /m0705.GIF
From above picture you immediately see what is needed to fixate the arm : namely the green coloured "Bearing Outer Ring". This is what I refer to as the inner bearing race.
Talk about bad english !
As the bearing is a tapered roller bearing - then the rollers always tends to be pressed outwards as the bearing wears and breaks up. This causes the area in the arm around the oil seal (and trust washer) to be filed out by the breaking up bearing. Very rarely you have damage to the Bearing Outer Ring seating plane - which is exactly where the arm fixation forces are applied.
Hence my above experiment in Shakespear on the sealing.
BTW : The xantia rear arm is the exact same construction on the bearings and seals - even the same repair kit - as the BX.
The reason I pursue this subject is, that very few mechanics are aware of the construction of the arm - do not understand where the forces are applied. Hence they see a grooved monster on disassembly and demands the arm replaced.
This is true for BX, CX, XM & Xantia rear arms.

citronut · Post by **citronut** » 21 Jun 2005, 04:20

put new bearings in and pack loads of grease around seals,or there is a company in RYE KENT (JHB enginering)who boar them out and sleave them,also i would have thought abs arm will fit a non abs car but not other way around,you can fit your calliper regards malcolm

Post by **Peter.N.** » 21 Jun 2005, 05:21

I have replaced several sets of trailing arm bearings in damaged arms without a problem, providing, as Anders says, that there is sufficient metal to locate the bearings securely.

DoubleChevron · Post by **DoubleChevron** » 21 Jun 2005, 05:51

Anders,
you mention "as long as the bearing seats are OK" ??
The new bearings come with new seats. Even if the alloy is damaged in the arm, and the seat itself damaged it matters little. You just press the old seat out, press the new bearing seat in, maybe clean up the seal surface and re-assemble. I still think the grease nipple is a good idea. I bassically pump grease into them until the seal blows up (that way you know there full), then press the seal back into place.
See here:
http://www.aussiefrogs.com/shane/cx2500 ... arms2.html
I just grabbed the back of the bearing race with this:

I really do think the seal is most ineffective even when it's in perfect condition.
seeya,
Shane L.

AndersDK · Post by **AndersDK** » 21 Jun 2005, 20:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DoubleChevron

Anders,
you mention "as long as the bearing seats are OK" ??
The new bearings come with new seats. Even if the alloy is damaged in the arm, and the seat itself damaged it matters little. You just press the old seat out, press the new bearing seat in, maybe clean up the seal surface and re-assemble. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Really Shane - it's the language devil fooling around here [:p]
If you follow my text - and look up that picture - you immediately understand me right - I hope [:(]
Someone with native correct british language please stand back and look over the text above. Then condense to the correct terms please [8D]

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 21 Jun 2005, 21:21

I guess a lot of this is dependent on whether you are referring to the arm or the bearing. The hardened rings of a bearing are usually referred to as races, the inner being the smaller, and the outer being the larger.
Of course when looking at it from the point of view of the arm, the bearing outer race goes innermost on the arm, and so can often get called the inner seat. Makes sense I guess, but isn't correct in terms of the bearing.
This image, and it's wording:

is actually correct, if you substiture the word "race" for "ring"
It also throws up another question. Where are people putting grease nipples in these? it would appear that there is only a very small area between the oil seal and the bearing outer race that you can put it, in order for the grease to be inside the plastic tube, but outside the inner metal tube.
Which also throws up a question about drilling and cross-drilling the through-bolt. How does the grease get from inside the metal tube to outside it (and inside the plastic one)? This must mean you have to drill the metal tube too, but you have no guarantee that the holes in the bolt and the hole in the metal tube will line up.

bxbodger · Post by **bxbodger** » 21 Jun 2005, 21:28

Ghostriders link above shows how it works- the grease is pumped in from the end of the pivot shaft, into the spacer, and thence into the bearings.
Personally, I wouldn't bother, doing the bearings every 10 to 15 years or so isn't too much of a hardship, but then mine are nearly a quarter of a million miles and 16 years old, and showing no sign of wear yet!!