HDi 90 Clutch slippage

drpau · Post by **drpau** » 18 May 2005, 03:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rossd

Honestly I think its because my clutch is worn and not because it cant handle it. I have spoken with people running much more power than me on the standard clutch and its fine. I also spoke to the techies at my local dealer who reckon a new OE clutch will be up to the job, there reasoning being if they were that marginal they would see a lot more 306's with clutch problems chipped or not (eg those used for towing). I was running lots of power on my old 306 which had a smaller clutch and that handled it absolutely fine too, even at over 100K miles [:)]
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mines on 95k, the fact that it has a towbar on tells me its been used for towing in the past-which would obviously wear the clutch more.
Would ambient temperature have any bearing on clutch slip? As today it was quite a bit warmer than yesterday and it didnt seem to slip whereas yesterday it did..[:o)]

oilyspanner · Post by **oilyspanner** » 18 May 2005, 04:23

In my experience of the clutches in these vehicles, the demise of the clutch is most often due to the pressure plate/thrust race either failing or wearing rather than the old fashioned wearing out of the driven plate, therefore horsepower cannot be a factor, these clutches are tough readily withstanding 1000s of taxi driver miles, start with a new standard clutch and you shouldnt see a problem for thousands of miles[:D]
s

fastandfurryous · Post by **fastandfurryous** » 18 May 2005, 04:37

One thing that can cause fairly nasty clutch slippage, and can be somewhat variable, is oil contamination. Usually in this case not from the engine oil, but from the Gearbox oil. The BE3 Gearbox is very easily overfilled, and if left like that, the oil can blow past the input shaft seal, along the input shaft, and straight onto the friction plate.
The 309 I just changed the clutch in had exactly this problem. Made very obvious by "star" markings on the clutch : Radial lines in oil. I'll get a photo up if I can soon.

rossd · Post by **rossd** » 18 May 2005, 13:22

Oddly DrPau, I have been reading a few of the French motoring forums and have found some topics on Xsara clutch problems. They complain that the clutch only slips in very cold weather, so you may have a point when you say that yours slips less in the warmer weather.
fastandfurryous: I have recently changed the gearbox oil, but am certain it wasnt overfilled. I will definatly look into this though when the box comes off just to check.

drpau · Post by **drpau** » 18 May 2005, 16:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rossd

Oddly DrPau, I have been reading a few of the French motoring forums and have found some topics on Xsara clutch problems. They complain that the clutch only slips in very cold weather, so you may have a point when you say that yours slips less in the warmer weather.
fastandfurryous: I have recently changed the gearbox oil, but am certain it wasnt overfilled. I will definatly look into this though when the box comes off just to check.
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rossd any chance of some pics as you go through the job if you get a chance> Would be interested to see them...
Cheers
Paul

rossd · Post by **rossd** » 18 May 2005, 16:46

Yep, no problem, although as I have said previously, its not going to be for a couple of weeks yet!!

simonelsey · Post by **simonelsey** » 18 May 2005, 20:59

That may be why my one slipped then stopped . It was during the cold snap and we had snow everywhere..all ok still<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rossd

Oddly DrPau, I have been reading a few of the French motoring forums and have found some topics on Xsara clutch problems. They complain that the clutch only slips in very cold weather, so you may have a point when you say that yours slips less in the warmer weather.
fastandfurryous: I have recently changed the gearbox oil, but am certain it wasnt overfilled. I will definatly look into this though when the box comes off just to check.
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Post by **Thunderbird** » 18 May 2005, 23:06

What really affects a clutch is not the power but the torque!
And not the torque available but the torque available you really use.
By the way, the ML5t is not that tough.
In my case, I only have near 300Nm torque. When driving normally, not pushing the transmission hard, it ran OK, but as soon as I started pushing the transmission to the limit, using the last 1Nm available, the clutch started to give signals of failure... Truly disappointing! [xx(]
A tough clutch is one that holds well up to 600Nm. Nowdays, every 2 liter diesel car does 300-350Nm, while the 3 liter ones never drop bellow 400Nm, and sometimes get closer to 600Nm. I won't talk about the 4 liter ones... [:0]

rossd · Post by **rossd** » 19 May 2005, 17:12

Yes but to keep costs down manufacturers will only use what is needed. For example in your case the 110 engine is rated at 250 Nm or thereabouts, so they are not going to fit a clutch which is rated for 350 - 400Nm... Would be nice if they did though!!!!

Post by **Thunderbird** » 19 May 2005, 17:20

rossd, I agree with you, but from 250 to 293Nm there's only a 17% increase. I would expect it to have a safety margin of at least 20%.

rossd · Post by **rossd** » 01 Jun 2005, 02:47

Well, first thing tomorrow I will be outside (with the help of a few willing mates with engine cranes!!) dropping the gearbox to fit the new clutch.
Here is a link to a picture showing my nice shiney new parts ready to go in!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v727/ ... 010382.jpg
I'll put links to more pictures of the job in progress as I do them. (If the mods feel this could be a "How To" I'll write it up.)

drpau · Post by **drpau** » 01 Jun 2005, 16:56

Good luck with this Ross! My slippage seems to have totally disappeared. I didnt bother turning my box down in the end and all is well [:D]
You MPG that I spotted in the other thread is significantly better than mine [V]

rossd · Post by **rossd** » 03 Jun 2005, 02:29

Cheers, it turned out I needed all the luck I could get. I started at 7am yesterday and we had the new clutch fitted by mid afternoon. All well and good I thought. Start the car, ok, press clutch pedal, ok........ Oh, no, whats the nasty screeching sound... hmm. Will it go in gera? CCCCRRRUUUNCH. It turned out I had stupidly fitted the friction plate back to front and so it was jamming against the flywheel. Stupid mistake! Right then, lets take it all apart again. Now having the knack of it, it took 4 of us 4 hours to get the gearbox back off (after again having to remove the air filter, battery, trays, assorted wiring looms etc etc, turn the friction plate around (luckily it wasnt damaged at all and get it all back together.
It all works fine now. I'll post some pictures of the old clutch shortly. The friction plate was only about half worn, the problem seemed to be the diaphragm springs had gone soft.
So, the moral of the story, check, double check and TRIPLE check the friction plate is correctly fitted!![:D]