Alternatives to LHM?

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 17 Apr 2005, 16:27

I've been looking around the websites of lubricant manufacturers, and there appear to be a number of mineral-based hydraulic fluids which meet the pressure and temperature requirements of HP systems, and which are compatible with all normally used seal materials and metals.
I seem to remember that this has been touched on before, but does anyone have experience of using these as cheaper substitutes for LHM?

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » 17 Apr 2005, 16:35

[quote]Originally posted by dnsey

cheaper substitutes for LHM?
[/quote
I've just filled up with LHM from GSF for around £12.50. Can't get much cheaper than that for every 30K miles.

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 17 Apr 2005, 16:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've just filled up with LHM from GSF for around £12.50<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd be quite happy with that, but 6 litres (a fill for the Xantia) comes out at almost twice that much going on the website prices - do you get a discount?

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 17 Apr 2005, 17:02

You won't find any, you're wasting your time.
The only thing that comes even close according to the experts in the field is a "Milspec 155 (?) brake fluid) which we looked at over here a few years back. It is something used by the Military (hence the 'Milspec' category) but it worked out to be at least 50% dearer than LHM and it still has a question mark hanging over it on a few fronts including it's foaming and lubricating properties.
Amongst things that are used are ATF, silicone and engine oil.
There is a company in the Netherlands that sells "Renard Blue" which is claimed to be better than LHM but which I have heard described as the Milspec with additives, but again, no cheaper.
Personally, I think it is false economy, but regardless, if a safe substitute can't be had for less than the cost of LHM then why bother?
BTW, how ever did you get 6 litres into a Xantia??
Alan S

JohnD · Post by **JohnD** » 17 Apr 2005, 17:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dnsey

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I've just filled up with LHM from GSF for around £12.50<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd be quite happy with that, but 6 litres (a fill for the Xantia) comes out at almost twice that much going on the website prices - do you get a discount?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sorry! I miscalculated - it was 5lrs of Morris LHM+ at 2.75 per ltr. £13.75 - but still can't grumble.

Richard Gallagher · Post by **Richard Gallagher** » 17 Apr 2005, 17:37

Have you looked at Morris LHM?
Its almost clear with just a hint of green, I'll stick with Total thank you for the couple of quid involved over the best part of 5 years.

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 17 Apr 2005, 20:53

I don't think the colour has an aweful lot to do with the chemical properties of Morris'es LHM - it meets the requirements specified by Citroën and is used by thousands of Citroën owners. When I lived in the UK I always used Morrises oils and never had or heard any complaints about thier products.
//NiSk

Post by **Peter.N.** » 17 Apr 2005, 20:58

Morrises from German & Swedish is about as cheap as you will get, I use it all the time.

dnsey · Post by **dnsey** » 18 Apr 2005, 01:28

Thanks for your responses, guys. I live very near the Morris factory, and have oftem used their LHM, so I think I'll stick with it.
FWIW, there's a fellow on the 'net (sorry, lost the link) who claims to have run hs BX on agricultural hydraulic oil for a good while without problems.
Cheers,
Dave.

czenda · Post by **czenda** » 18 Apr 2005, 01:49

I am not sure about how it works with LHM in UK, but the situation here is:
LHM 2 is sold by Total, Esso and Aral. Citroen is supposed to run on Total, but the other brands claim to be fully compatible. Esso LHM quotes PSA standard (which, honestly, I do not remember), Aral LHM quotes only EC standard.
Plus, there is Bendix LHM available in some spare parts stores, which is not any cheaper than Total, i.e. not interesting.
The hydraulic oil used in agricultural machines (I do not remember its standard, unfortunately) is used as "first aid" when LHM is not available (say, Cit with empty hydraulic system, Sunday morning at the countryside gas station). It has very bad reputation for clogging the system as, being intended for bigger clearance pipes, it has different viscosity and tends to form wax-like corks. Anyway, it can be used as a temporary replacement of the (4x more expensive) LHM.
It does not make any sense ordering the "blue" LHM from Netherlands here - the postage to be paid makes the stuff more expensive than original recommended Total.
If there is any LHM alchemy involved other than brand/standard, pls tell me.

Kowalski · Post by **Kowalski** » 18 Apr 2005, 04:13

My Dad has a 205 litre drum of SUTO in the garage. SUTO is Super Universal Tractor Oil, its an engine oil, a gearbox oil, a differential oil and a hyrdaulic oil all in one. SUTO is not a substitute for LHM, I don't even use the stuff in my car Xantia engine even though it meets the required API/ACEA standards the viscosity is wrong.
The handbook says that ATF fluid can be used as a temporary replacement for LHM but only in an emergency, and that it has to be flushed out at the first opportunity and replaced with LHM. Personally, with the cost of hydaulic pumps and the number of seals you've got on a Xantia, do you really want to find out whether oil 'x' is really compatible? I'd rather not find out that it was wrong for my car when it starts spurting oil from all over the place or your pump siezes up.

JohnT · Post by **JohnT** » 18 Apr 2005, 04:57

This is interesting? Why would you want to save a few pounds to save on the recommended oils from Citroen if the cost is sod all to the consequences of using the wrong or inferior product? You can replace the LHM with approved branded product for around £12 Or have I got this wrong? If not, I do hope I do not end up buying a second hand car with the wrong or non spec oils in the system. The 'system', for forum newcomers, is what makes your brakes, power steering, and suspension work correctly. I am amazed at the comments on replacing LHM with inferior or different product.
If this was a wind up, I fell for it!

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 18 Apr 2005, 05:32

John,
In the US they can't get LHM possibly because in the land of the guzzling V8s so few cars use it which is why other things need to be found.
Here in Australia, it's not much better due to small sales of Citroens over the years. At one stage, we were being quoted more for LHM+ than we were for a good quality Scotch whiskey (but we were told Whiskey doesn't work real well in hydraulic systems)[:D][:D]and I'm quite serious about that. Without looking for self praise, it was getting to a monopoly situation and we were being charged accordingly mainly due to Total not having a corporate presence here, so I publicly took on the Oil company concerned due to them increasing even their bulk wholesale prices by over 100% and then began having price increases on a regular basis. As a result of a direct approach to Total, an independent distributor came to the party and sold it to us at a reasonable price. Our initial order was for over 1100 litres so the size of the market for the greedy oil company fell dramatically. Owners have dealt with the Total independent ever since all over Australia.
The reason this drama had it's upside and for the knowledge of any Cit owner living anywhere that LHM isn't always readily available, is that as I discovered a couple of years back when I was passing through western New South Wales after collecting a CX I had bought, I dumped the contents of the hydraulic system. I was about 5-6 hours drive away from the nearest dealer in one direction and close to 1200klms from home in the opposite direction, it was Sunday and rural Towns in Oz are all closed on the Sabbath.
I fixed the leak and then went to town to find a garage/petrol station with enough ATF to get me home. It worked and worked well, however a few days later when I came to drain & refill with LHM, I noticed the colour of the ATF was now black so the question I had to ask myself was; did the black come from the action of things in the ATF on the aluminium or other components, was it due to a cleansing action or was there some kind of chemical reaction?
I'd like to think it was cleansing, but I never found out. I changed to LHM and the car subsequently did another 30,000 without any problems, so obviously atr a pinch it's OK but as a permanent thing, I'd be sceptical.
Alan S

oilyspanner · Post by **oilyspanner** » 18 Apr 2005, 14:55

In an emergency I have seen cooking oil used as a get you home substitute, in fact a friend who was running an old BX as work transport/toolbox ran the hydraulics on veg oil for over a year with no apparent ill effects.[8D]
Stewart

alan s · Post by **alan s** » 18 Apr 2005, 15:42

A few years back there was a guy from Malaysia who reckoned they were mostly using Coconut oil over there.
The thing that I think needs to be taken into account is that the LHM is a mineral based oil whilst these are vegetable based. The old Dot hydraulic fluids are also supposedly veggie based and these have totally different seals so if you hit an LHM car with brake fluid it causes severe damage to the seals so you'd have to wonder if anyone using a veggie based fluid was playing Russian Roullette unless some are neutral in their action against the various rubbers seals are made from.
Alan S