Manual vs. Automatic - The debate

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sbraud
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Post by sbraud »

I think I go for the ``semi automatic, tip-tronic, C-Matic’’ auto type thing.
It may be my advancing years that makes me think an auto would make my commute into London a whole lot easier. Anyone who drives in from the S-East to C London will know what I mean. [xx(]
My Head tells me `an auto would make like ``easy’’’… My heart tell me `I’m not ready for comfortable slippers, Saga magazines and coco to keep me warm between the sheets’ so it wants to drive… Man and machine in perfect harmony (hang on in there – it’s my fantasy)… [;)]
Head and Heart compromise – semi auto
Cheers
Steve
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Post by Kowalski »

Manual every time...
On performance, the manual is faster if the driver knows how to use it. The energy to change gears on a auto has to come from somewhere so you end up with inefficiency. Economy wise manuals are better for the above reason. I know that Mercedes has managed to get better fuel economy figures for some of its autos than the manuals but that is down to them having 7 gears (and very tall gearing).
I got my Xantia stuck in the snow we just had and managed to rock it to get it out, thats with a manual gearbox, driver skill does come into it somewhere...
The thing I didn't like about automatics was the lack of engine braking and the fact that engine revs and speed aren't directly related all of the time. They do things you don't want to do, changing gears at bad times and not hanging onto gears, they're not psychic, I like being in control.
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Post by alan s »

Kowalski,
This is where those c-matics shine; the best of both worlds.
Alan S
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Post by ActivaV6uk »

its intertesting this one as we are an international forum. my personal preference would be a semi as i like the ability to change at will when i have to. but interestingly my american wife now hates driving autos (she had never driven a manual untill she moved to the uk. she finds that having to think about your gears and changing them makes driving more interesting. she was overwhelmed at first that you had to listen to the engine/look at the taco but since that point she has picked it up very well and drives well considering the road layouts and cars are effectivly alien to her. she can actualy now drive any manual from her activa to my dads van (which my dad found hard to drive after 45 years of driving).
i think that this is very much dependant on what type of driving you do. id hate a manual if i was constantly in trqaffic jams but for contry lanes and moterway driving manual is what i would want...
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Post by VisaGTi16v »

My supra is automatic and its blinking awful! Great round the town and ok on most open roads but if your thrashing it then automatic is just rubbish. However mine does have an ancient gearbox on it which changes gear as violently as dropping a psa td engine from 3 metres and it will kick the back out on the upchanges if its remotely damp! Ive been in a few newer autos and they were so smooth you could hardly notice them. For 99% of driving a clutch is an annoyance but also a fully automatic is not ideal. Best solution as mentioned above is paddle shift but one which stays in the gear its in. A lot of them will upshift automaticlly when on the limiter and wont let you downshift if they think you should be in a higher gear even if the car could do the mph in a lower one. That would wind me right up.
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Post by 406 V6 »

Well, my humble opinion:
For me, autos are worth in city traffic and general driving, except in mountain roads, where the box can be always changing gears.
For this reason, a tiptronic type of box is preferable (most autos today on the market are).
Still, as autos are driven by torque, i recomend either 2.0L diesels and above or 2.5 petrols and above (i find that my V6 is perfect for the auto, if it was less, well...). I once drove a C5 2.2HDi auto, and it pulled like a charm. (BTW, www.fonsecautos.com is selling one, T-Bird).
About consumptions, i easily make 11,5~12,5l/100kms in town driving with the 406. If it were manual... i don't even dare to think!
I can say surely that my next car would be an auto, but it would have to be a diesel.
One thing i can't live with is the fact that, with Pug having new 6 speed autos, Citroën is still using the old 4 speed boxes... That's life!
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Post by fastandfurryous »

I detest Auto boxes. I'm sure they have their benefits, but having owned a few over the years, I find them deadly dull to drive. Give me a clutch and a manual box any day. I know modern Auto's have manual over-rides, paddle change etc, but with the amount of electronic control they rely on, I don't think I'd want one of these either.
There's also no reason why a dry-plate clutch shouldn't last the lifetime of the car. My father bought a 2.0i Cavalier brand new in 1988, and I scrapped it about a year ago. It had 250k miles on it, and was still on its factory clutch.
I just hope that cars in general continue to be offered with a choice of gearbox. I'll pick the one I like, and other people can pick the one they like.
Thunderbird

Post by Thunderbird »

Well, in the luxery segment, there is no option - Only automatic gearboxes. And that makes sense. Refinement, comfort, soupless.
Also, most recent auto boxes are quite advanced - intelligent and smooth. Most faults pointed in this debate to auto boxes no longer exist.
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Post by Kowalski »

My Dad has a JCB and that has a manual gearbox but no clutch, instead it has a torque converter with some sort of leak off valve operated by the clutch pedal. It only has a 4 speed gearbox but there is a column mounted "shuttle" lever so you can go forward or backward in any of the 4 gears.
Incidentally it's a turbo diesel and produces roughly 90 horse power the same as my Xantia but rather more torque. It is 4 litres and has a rather familiar looking Lucas fuel pump.
Mercedes was behind other manufacturers in terms of manual gearboxes for years but ahead on automatics since they sell more auto boxes than manuals.
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Post by jeremy »

The Lucas pump is in fact very similar looking to its original mid 50's invention. (my 89 BX TD one is very similar to a 1957 Ferguson Tractor one albeit with a few extra nobbly bits.
I like automatics and have found that generally if they are properly adjusted they will change gear smoothly and are reliable. Its interesting that for many years now its easier to get an auto repaired by a specialist than a manual.
I live in the centre of a City and in many repsects an auto would be an absolute joy but of course Citroen didn't make a BX TD auto (yes ok I could porobably cobble a Xantia TD in there but life's too short. The ZX could have been auto but one didn't come up when we were looking and I couldn't persuade my wife that our neighbour's BX auto was the car for her.
I know that there is the thrill of the open road and the pleasurs of a good gearbox. In reality its a bit like the question of how do you design a space suit - for wear on earth or in space? - The answer will surprise you - its designed for wear on earth as thats where its worn for the majority of the time (like 90%)
performance - yes get the changes right and the manual is quicker. Put your foot down in the auto and it goes - not really much in it in reality as how often are you going to get it right in the manual?
Modern boxes like the new Citroen are very interesting and I'd like a go. The bit I found most objectionable with the daf belt transmission was the sheer volume and quality (or lack of it)of the noise it made. I also remember a Fiesta with a CVC? transmission which was a steel belted version of the same thing which made similar noises. No doubt Audi's steps cure this problem and enable the thing to be driven gently without the revs going beserk.
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Post by VisaGTi16v »

The town figure for my supra is 1mpg less than the manual. 19.1mpg heh :p
Does anyone know if the 6 speed manual psa (peugeot only?) have started to use, is the old be3 based 6 speed from the gti-6 or is it a new box? Also will it fit on those older blocks which used to take a be3
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Post by Kowalski »

My Dad also has an International 434 tractor with a similar although not identical looking Lucas fuel pump. The tractor is 'F' reg (old 'F' on black number plates), has done 1200 engine hours, has glowplugs and still manages to start in the coldest of weather without needing the glowplugs.
Thunderbird

Post by Thunderbird »

Actually, Citroen uses a 6-speed automatic gearbox on the C5 V6 mk2.
The new C5 2.7HDi V6, C6 3.0 V6 and C6 2.7HDi V6 will all use a 6-speed box as well. I believe there will never be a manual gearbox available for these models.
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Post by FrenchLeave »

I once owned a 1934 Talbot 105 sports saloon. (Talbot London, not Sunbeam Talbot) designed by Georges Roesche. Aluminium body, 2.5 litre straight six and a centrifugal clutch driving a self-selecting Wilson preselector box. This was a four speed epicyclic gearbox where you selected the gear you wanted and then changed gear by pushing the gear change pedal (in the same place as the normal clutch pedal). The self selecting bit happened when you pressed the pedal, the selector automatically moved to the next gear position. You had to remember that if you wanted to change down, you had to move the lever down two notches. Was this the first semi automatic gearbox?
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Post by yangreen »

My Rover P6 has an auto and I love it. 3 speed too. Click it into second and it drops instantly unlike flappy paddle techno crap found in smarts and Aston Martins. Takes the weight off the clutch foot and enables maximum waft.
The 2cv has a manual gearbox and I love it! The clutch is light and sweet acting more like a button. The gearchange is wonderfully precise (unlike my girlfriends AX of the same 100+k mileage).
It really does depend on the car. I drove an Isuzu Bighorn TD auto the other day and I thought it was dreadful! The Audi TT V6 is meant to have one of the best clutchless gearboxes. It has two clutches and pre-selects the next gear for you enabling quicker changes. Frightening!! Or Black Magic as Mr Clarkson concluded.
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