I've done a few engine swaps with some major increases in power. My insurers at the time (Adrian Flux) didn't ven want to see the car(s) let alone get a report. They just bumped up the premium.
I don't think an decent insurer will be too bothered about replacing a 92 brake TD with a 90 or 110 brake HDi. They are more concerned with extenal mods that shout 'fast car - steal me'
It's an interesting option - the 110 WOULD make a great engine in a light car like a ZX or 405.
Will a HDI engine fit into a 1.9td car??
Moderator: RichardW
Bah, insurers...
Just say you bought it like that, on a Peugeot 405 with 5 owners or something, how are you, a simple second hand buyer, supposed to know what engine it was and how the pistons work?
Just be ignorant and go on what is on the V5...
Afterall, your car already has rear brake discs and axle from an Mi16, and it came with it on already when you bought it. Does that mean in a crash that they'd not pay out because of it? I don't think so...
...unless of course, which I believe half the problem is, that a dufus does it themselves, and the axle falls off and you run over an old granny on the pavement kinda thing... then your insurance company would be very unhappy, ie not pay out.
There could be a non OEM Peugeot hose on the radiator return or a non Peugeot thermostat. Non-oem wing mirror glass. Does this all mean your not insured? Perhaps xantia v6 brakes on a lesser model citroen?
Old cars get so bastardised over the years and owners, I don't think ONE old car on the road is insured if just one alteration or part from a higher spec model is used!!! How is the end user meant to know EXACTLY what is on their car to tell the insurers...?
Dave
PS, I'd just get a nice 3 door hdi d turbo 306 and get Allard to bung a big intercooler on it and then source a Gti6 gearbox for it... Nice! Don't tell the insurers either, just say you bought it like that... your not a big "car person" you see, "whats an intercooler?"...
Just say you bought it like that, on a Peugeot 405 with 5 owners or something, how are you, a simple second hand buyer, supposed to know what engine it was and how the pistons work?
Just be ignorant and go on what is on the V5...
Afterall, your car already has rear brake discs and axle from an Mi16, and it came with it on already when you bought it. Does that mean in a crash that they'd not pay out because of it? I don't think so...
...unless of course, which I believe half the problem is, that a dufus does it themselves, and the axle falls off and you run over an old granny on the pavement kinda thing... then your insurance company would be very unhappy, ie not pay out.
There could be a non OEM Peugeot hose on the radiator return or a non Peugeot thermostat. Non-oem wing mirror glass. Does this all mean your not insured? Perhaps xantia v6 brakes on a lesser model citroen?
Old cars get so bastardised over the years and owners, I don't think ONE old car on the road is insured if just one alteration or part from a higher spec model is used!!! How is the end user meant to know EXACTLY what is on their car to tell the insurers...?
Dave
PS, I'd just get a nice 3 door hdi d turbo 306 and get Allard to bung a big intercooler on it and then source a Gti6 gearbox for it... Nice! Don't tell the insurers either, just say you bought it like that... your not a big "car person" you see, "whats an intercooler?"...
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ActivaV6uk
- Posts: 650
- Joined: 20 Nov 2003, 16:51
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars: C5 X7 2.7 hdi
Past cars
Activa, silver MK1 (221bhp stock) stripped out with twin sparcos Evo seats. 95
Activa, light met red MK1 98
Activa, dark met red MK1 98
Activa, dark met blue MK1 (202bhp stock) 96
Xantia exclusive V6 auto 3l 98
Xantia 2l 8v auto
BX 4x4 GTi dark met silver
BX 4x4 GTi white
BX GTi 16v white fibre bumpers
BX GTi 16v black fibre bumpers
BX GTi 16v hurricane (doa)
BX DTR estate
The right answer is at the bottom of the last post buy a 306 hdi and go from there.
Suggesting that you don’t clamed the different engine is nothing short of stupidity as you can go to prison should you get court, also when the car is MOT'ed the engine number is checked then so its possible to see that the car has been modified in your possession. The people who check these things are experts and know exactly what there looking at (because they take the info away and talk to people like Peugeot to find out what the deal really is). Intercoolers and lots of other small mod’s I would be tempted not to mention and play dumb but again I am aware that if some one really wants you to go down for it you will.
Andy
Suggesting that you don’t clamed the different engine is nothing short of stupidity as you can go to prison should you get court, also when the car is MOT'ed the engine number is checked then so its possible to see that the car has been modified in your possession. The people who check these things are experts and know exactly what there looking at (because they take the info away and talk to people like Peugeot to find out what the deal really is). Intercoolers and lots of other small mod’s I would be tempted not to mention and play dumb but again I am aware that if some one really wants you to go down for it you will.
Andy
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madasafish
- Posts: 192
- Joined: 01 Sep 2004, 14:20
- Location:
- My Cars:
I have little car expertise: just built a couple of kit cars/maintain all my own/ran a 1929 Riley 9 , rebuilt a couple of engines , suspensions: so just know nothing at all about cars:-)
Whne you insure a car, you must declare ALL modifications from standard. Even if you did not do them and they are major, tough luck. The insurers will compare what you declared and reality. Answer: no insurance.
And even the blindest insurance isnpector can see taht a HDI engine is different from a 1.9.. to suggest otherwise portrays even more ignorance than I possess:-)
There is also a small matter of the vehicle security system which is linked to the ECU and fuel pump. Not insurmountable.. but a pig of a job to sort out.
Whne you insure a car, you must declare ALL modifications from standard. Even if you did not do them and they are major, tough luck. The insurers will compare what you declared and reality. Answer: no insurance.
And even the blindest insurance isnpector can see taht a HDI engine is different from a 1.9.. to suggest otherwise portrays even more ignorance than I possess:-)
There is also a small matter of the vehicle security system which is linked to the ECU and fuel pump. Not insurmountable.. but a pig of a job to sort out.
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ActivaV6uk
- Posts: 650
- Joined: 20 Nov 2003, 16:51
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars: C5 X7 2.7 hdi
Past cars
Activa, silver MK1 (221bhp stock) stripped out with twin sparcos Evo seats. 95
Activa, light met red MK1 98
Activa, dark met red MK1 98
Activa, dark met blue MK1 (202bhp stock) 96
Xantia exclusive V6 auto 3l 98
Xantia 2l 8v auto
BX 4x4 GTi dark met silver
BX 4x4 GTi white
BX GTi 16v white fibre bumpers
BX GTi 16v black fibre bumpers
BX GTi 16v hurricane (doa)
BX DTR estate
It's sad to think you could go to prison on a "technicality" without actually doing anything wrong. An engine "number"... it's just a damn number to prevent people stealing engines and making new cars from old written off ones etc etc... your not actually harming anyone if you do your own engine swap!
Uh well, I digress.
I would say that at no MOT have I ever had them check the engine numbers. I once had a timing belt go on my car, and replaced the engine block and head, and it passed a further 3 or 4 mot's before I sold it on. I never told the DVLA, like it mattered? Was it a danger or loss to society? No. Was it really immoral? No. Was it just not filling in the governments paper work? Yes.
Thing is, stealing engines and replicating cars or whatever, is probably punishable by the same degree as not notifying the DVLA of the change of engine..! Shame when a technicality that does NO harm whatsoever is as bad as doing the crime it is there to prevent! Suppose the deterrent though, would a home engine upgrader really suffer the same wrath as a serial engine/car identity changer?
Lol, where are we heading. If it carries on, no car will be allowed to be touched by anyone but a main dealer or a "trained" expert... lol, a Peugeot/Citroen dealer monkey mechanic!
Anyway, so if we did put that engine in, altered the engine number and all that, don't you just need to get an SVA type approval thing, like when you build a kit car?
I assume if they were clued up at all it'd be a 5 min job, as they know the rest of the car is sound, just need to make sure the engine mounts are right etc!
How do we go on with cars if we replace same model with higher spec model parts?
Ie, my Peugeot had Gti6 wheels when I got my car written off, and numerous other bodykit parts (front and rear mi16 bumpers, spolier), and the insurers just sent an engineer to see it and said, yeah, cat3, written off and gave me £1300 quid.
Why didn't they say, hmmm, this loom is from a 1993 model, not a 1994 model, and say, hmmmm, these seats are from the GTX, not a GLX so that made you crash? "Ooohhhh, those bumpers were not an option in that year on that model, so you must have put them there yourself... you evil person!"
I guess it's ok to "interbreed" same model parts, and to some extent same era and manufacturer parts? Ie, like putting Xantia V6 brakes on a smaller Citroen? Who's to know they were not put on when it was brand new if they are parts that were available on that model when it was new?
Seems the older the car, the less they care about exact spec being as it was from the factory, as over time parts are rare and get substituted etc. As long as it's to original manufacturer spec parts?
Sorry for going a bit off topic, but it's an interesting discussion around what we can do to our cars without worrying about the "technicality" wrongs of what we are doing.
I don't think an engine swap is ever morally or socially wrong (infact a HDI would be much better for the environment and noise pollution).
Cheers
Dave
Uh well, I digress.
I would say that at no MOT have I ever had them check the engine numbers. I once had a timing belt go on my car, and replaced the engine block and head, and it passed a further 3 or 4 mot's before I sold it on. I never told the DVLA, like it mattered? Was it a danger or loss to society? No. Was it really immoral? No. Was it just not filling in the governments paper work? Yes.
Thing is, stealing engines and replicating cars or whatever, is probably punishable by the same degree as not notifying the DVLA of the change of engine..! Shame when a technicality that does NO harm whatsoever is as bad as doing the crime it is there to prevent! Suppose the deterrent though, would a home engine upgrader really suffer the same wrath as a serial engine/car identity changer?
Lol, where are we heading. If it carries on, no car will be allowed to be touched by anyone but a main dealer or a "trained" expert... lol, a Peugeot/Citroen dealer monkey mechanic!
Anyway, so if we did put that engine in, altered the engine number and all that, don't you just need to get an SVA type approval thing, like when you build a kit car?
I assume if they were clued up at all it'd be a 5 min job, as they know the rest of the car is sound, just need to make sure the engine mounts are right etc!
How do we go on with cars if we replace same model with higher spec model parts?
Ie, my Peugeot had Gti6 wheels when I got my car written off, and numerous other bodykit parts (front and rear mi16 bumpers, spolier), and the insurers just sent an engineer to see it and said, yeah, cat3, written off and gave me £1300 quid.
Why didn't they say, hmmm, this loom is from a 1993 model, not a 1994 model, and say, hmmmm, these seats are from the GTX, not a GLX so that made you crash? "Ooohhhh, those bumpers were not an option in that year on that model, so you must have put them there yourself... you evil person!"
I guess it's ok to "interbreed" same model parts, and to some extent same era and manufacturer parts? Ie, like putting Xantia V6 brakes on a smaller Citroen? Who's to know they were not put on when it was brand new if they are parts that were available on that model when it was new?
Seems the older the car, the less they care about exact spec being as it was from the factory, as over time parts are rare and get substituted etc. As long as it's to original manufacturer spec parts?
Sorry for going a bit off topic, but it's an interesting discussion around what we can do to our cars without worrying about the "technicality" wrongs of what we are doing.
I don't think an engine swap is ever morally or socially wrong (infact a HDI would be much better for the environment and noise pollution).
Cheers
Dave
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ActivaV6uk
- Posts: 650
- Joined: 20 Nov 2003, 16:51
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars: C5 X7 2.7 hdi
Past cars
Activa, silver MK1 (221bhp stock) stripped out with twin sparcos Evo seats. 95
Activa, light met red MK1 98
Activa, dark met red MK1 98
Activa, dark met blue MK1 (202bhp stock) 96
Xantia exclusive V6 auto 3l 98
Xantia 2l 8v auto
BX 4x4 GTi dark met silver
BX 4x4 GTi white
BX GTi 16v white fibre bumpers
BX GTi 16v black fibre bumpers
BX GTi 16v hurricane (doa)
BX DTR estate
Yeah I think its annoying too, the projects I'm working on at the moment are a 2.1 Activa and a V6 Activa, the more i work on it the more I find rules you have to abide by...
Useful info:
If you replace or increase an engine size and its the same fuel type you just have to write to the dvla and tell them the new engine number and the size increase no proof has to be provided (V5 has to go back for modification).
If you decrease the engine size you have to have the change verified by a qualified mechanic.
If you change from petrol to Diesel (or vice versa) you have to have the car certified at the SVA.
If you want to change the model type then you have to have the car inspected by the manufacturer and they have to certify the car is the new type (yes this can be awful!). – Citroen are “helping” me chance my cars to “Xantia Activa V6 Manual” and “Xantia Activa 2.1Turbo” there is a hell of a lot of paperwork and if they do it the cars will be the first registered in the UK.
Basically if you change engine size I would tell the DVLA and tell the insurance company it’s a 2.0 you may find that they don’t care if you tell them it was out of necessity because the old engine failed.
Andy
Useful info:
If you replace or increase an engine size and its the same fuel type you just have to write to the dvla and tell them the new engine number and the size increase no proof has to be provided (V5 has to go back for modification).
If you decrease the engine size you have to have the change verified by a qualified mechanic.
If you change from petrol to Diesel (or vice versa) you have to have the car certified at the SVA.
If you want to change the model type then you have to have the car inspected by the manufacturer and they have to certify the car is the new type (yes this can be awful!). – Citroen are “helping” me chance my cars to “Xantia Activa V6 Manual” and “Xantia Activa 2.1Turbo” there is a hell of a lot of paperwork and if they do it the cars will be the first registered in the UK.
Basically if you change engine size I would tell the DVLA and tell the insurance company it’s a 2.0 you may find that they don’t care if you tell them it was out of necessity because the old engine failed.
Andy
Hi thanks for all your input everyone, not to concerned about the insurance thing as i m sure the extra cost will be nominal for the engine change, as stuart mentioned (thanks for that) and he has actuall experience with this matter.
Mainly just wanted to know if is possible, which it appers to be (not how much it will cost to insure, i will ring my insurance company for this!! [:)]) so i will keep the avice in mind and see if another 110 HDI engine comes up cheap
Cheers all Joe
Mainly just wanted to know if is possible, which it appers to be (not how much it will cost to insure, i will ring my insurance company for this!! [:)]) so i will keep the avice in mind and see if another 110 HDI engine comes up cheap
Cheers all Joe
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by madasafish</i>
There is also a small matter of the vehicle security system which is linked to the ECU and fuel pump. Not insurmountable.. but a pig of a job to sort out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
thats what i was thinking,although the imobiliser doesent stop the fuel pump operating it just stops the car injecting fuel,depending on what model & year of car the engine came out you would need also the CPH unit & the key of the car it came out to unlock the imobiliser.
engine numbers are not checked as part on an MOT.
There is also a small matter of the vehicle security system which is linked to the ECU and fuel pump. Not insurmountable.. but a pig of a job to sort out.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
thats what i was thinking,although the imobiliser doesent stop the fuel pump operating it just stops the car injecting fuel,depending on what model & year of car the engine came out you would need also the CPH unit & the key of the car it came out to unlock the imobiliser.
engine numbers are not checked as part on an MOT.
I would agree that for minor alterations/modifications it is probably not necessary to inform the insurers. However,don't some insurers put premiums up if you stick a flash pair of alloys on the car?
Certainly for an engine swap that results in an increase in BHP (however minimal) you have got to tell the insurers.The problem would not be if you wrote the car off, but if you crippled/killed someone and it was your fault. With huge claims like that an insurance company will try anything and explore every angle to get out of it.
Certainly for an engine swap that results in an increase in BHP (however minimal) you have got to tell the insurers.The problem would not be if you wrote the car off, but if you crippled/killed someone and it was your fault. With huge claims like that an insurance company will try anything and explore every angle to get out of it.