Upgrading to a TD - exhaust modification?

Wookey · Post by **Wookey** » 24 Jan 2005, 06:51

OK, bulletin on my efforts to upgrade my expert from NA to TD.
Mostly I have discovered that there are only a few ancilliary items on the whole engine the same when moving from an expert NA to Xantia-sourced TD. Nearly everything is different. Only the oil filler, oil cooler/filter, flywheel, rear water nexus, and crank cog/pulley are the same. Everything else is different:
fuel filter housing, thermostat options, wiring loom, injection pump (of course), injection pump mount!, alternator, alternator mount, alternator belt adjuster, water pump, timing belt cover, intermediate roller, camshaft, vacuum pump, turbo, inlet and exhaust manifolds, top engine mount, even the bolt holding the metal water pipes on at the back, and of course a load of bracketry.
So I've spent a merry couple of weekends finding that I needed to do lot of swapping about of bits to make it all match up. If I had kept the old-style timing belt cover with the tin plate, then I could have not bothered swapping some of the above (water pump, intermediate roller, and injection pump mount only change to accommodate the different timing cover design!). The water pump has a flange built in so the timing cover doesn't need to have it! and the injection pump bracket has an extra bit just so there is a hole to mount the cover to.
I kept thinking I'd finished and found something else that needed changing over.
Anyway - to the important stuff. It seems the the KKK turbo I have is the opposite way round to the garret turbo normally used on the expert (the KKK turbo inlet is on the offside, the Garret one has it on the nearside) - see pic at: http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... C_ID=11510
This means that none of the standard parts will fit for exhaust, intake and intercooler pipes and I'm going to have work something out myself. I can manage the airpipe with some faffing about. Anyone know a good source of 65mm/2.5" pipe? It seems to be inordinately expensive from performance parts suppliers.
I'd be very interested to know which other cars have the rubo this way round - some of their bits might fit/be useful - I need to spend a bit of time in the scrappy (which is tricky before I make the car work, as none are very close).
But the hardest bit is making my exhaust fit. Can I just hack the end off and weld it back on in the right place? It needs to move back a bit and change angle by 30 degrees. Will an exhaust welded this way corrode horribly at the weld? Anything I can do about that? If cutting is not sufficient and I need to bend it a bit how on earth might I go about that - the front end can be quite solid? I'd like to make a front pipe that will last otherwise I forsee a lifetime of faffing about with non-standard exhausts...
I have a couple more queries about plumbing but I'll start another thread for that.
I've taken the opportunity to paint the whole subframe with proper chassis paint. As soon as that's dried I can put it back together and see if it works - probably next weekend.

vanny · Post by **vanny** » 24 Jan 2005, 14:07

When i went from NA to TD i initially had a problem with the exhaust as i couldnt get nything to fit, until someone on here (probably Jon) pointed out that all i needed was a TD down pipe. Being this was on a BX i went and bought myself a 1.7TD down pipe (Bosal £15 ish) and took it home on the bus and it fitted perfect first time no bother. Id suggest simply getting a TD down pipe for the Expert!
I have a Xantia engine in mine with a KKK and it went into the BX without any problems. I've also seen the BX with a Garret unit on it, and they seem to be located in exactly the same way, seems strange to have so much difficulty with it!

mrbump · Post by **mrbump** » 24 Jan 2005, 16:21

Hi Wookey,
All xantia turbos I have seen, and all zx and 405 have the compressor inlet pointing at the drivers wing (offside)? Assuming the KKK turbo you have is still a K14 model, and it is definately different, why not just get a zx/405/others manifold so that you can mount it normally? Have you actually looked at the engine and not just the diagram? What year is the xantia donor? The small pipe is egr i think.
You do realise that to get the intercooler hoses to clear on a zx for the xantia style front mount (i dont know about an expert (what is it based on?) you cannot use the xantia pipes anyway? They wont clear the bulkhead. You need to chop one of the 'butresses' off the xantia manifold and your home made hose through there. Maybe an expert is big enough you will have space though.
As for the exhaust, mine is a botch job of two systems (half zx/half 405) with no silencer and 2.5" straight through muffler at the back. I have welded it out of about 7 different sections as I kept getting the angles wrong! Just paint over the welds with something that doesnt mind heat afterwards and it should be no problem.
HTH
Greg

Wookey · Post by **Wookey** » 24 Jan 2005, 20:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by vanny

When i went from NA to TD i initially had a problem with the exhaust as i couldnt get nything to fit, until someone on here (probably Jon) pointed out that all i needed was a TD down pipe.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes- that would be what I'd do if the turbo wasn't apparently 'the wrong way round'. This diagram shows the turbo layout according to peugeot

.
This one shows the back of my engine:

As you can see it's all the opposite way round and the turbo-to-exhaust piece is completely different. I have no idea if the end ends up in the same place and the TD downpipe will fit. It's 50 quid for one so I could certainly try it.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I have a Xantia engine in mine with a KKK and it went into the BX without any problems. I've also seen the BX with a Garret unit on it, and they seem to be located in exactly the same way, seems strange to have so much difficulty with it!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes - I'm rather perplexed about all this, but the info on that website matches what the peugeot parts people have on their computer.
As Mrbump poins out it would be really good if I could look at a real one for a reality check but I haven't been able to find one round here yet - only NAs and HDis.
Mrbump:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">All xantia turbos I have seen, and all zx and 405 have the compressor inlet pointing at the drivers wing (offside)? Assuming the KKK turbo you have is still a K14 model, and it is definately different, why not just get a zx/405/others manifold so that you can mount it normally?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Right - so xantia, zx, and 405 are all the same, and the same as I have here, but apparently different from the expert. And indeed - now that I have a peugeot refence I can look it up:

Which is exactly what I've got. As you can see that's definately different from the expert diag. funny old world, eh?
As to the pipe routing, I'm sure I'm going to have fun there, and I have no idea which cars I can get bits off, or if I'll just be better off making my own pipes. There isn't much room on top of the engine (it's sort of under the dash' But I could move the expansion tank to make some if necessary. There is loads of space in front of the engine. Maybe they put a backwards turbo because you can't make the pies work if you don't? That would be tiresome.
Whilst on the subject of turbos - the oil return pipe has a funky union thing (7 on the above diag). The pipe going into this nut is quite loose, and leaking oil. It remains loose when I screw down the union nut quite hard. That almost certainly isn't right, but I'm not sure if its the pipe or the union that is knackered or if I have a seal missing. Again - here's a pic - you can see where to oil is getting out and that the bit the pipe goes into looks a bit flared - do you think that's been bent and should be snug?

Any clues? Now I've seen the assembly diag it makes more sense and I suppose I should just try disassembling it.
The Expert is the same running gear as an (pug) 806, (cit) dispatch, (fiat) scudo, (cit) evasion, (fiat) ulysse, BTW.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Just paint over the welds with something that doesnt mind heat afterwards and it should be no problem.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It was the insides I was worried about - don't exhausts corrode from the inside out generally?
Thanx muchly for your help. I think I'm making slow progress here understanding what the hells going on

I least I will know properly how my car fits together at the end of this.

ACTIVE8 · Post by **ACTIVE8** » 24 Jan 2005, 21:17

The leaking pipe/union is the feed from an oil gallery into the turbo. The connector in diagram V 06/97 ZN 03L10A which has the number 7 should be tight with the seal number 8 stopping it from leaking.
I have encountered a leak like this before on turbo charged vehicles, and have had to replace components numbered 6,7,8,& 9.
I have found the seals damaged (no 8), the pipe can get damaged (no 6) the pipe actually has an olive on it, and that can get damaged.
Note, on the same diagram it shows "P" clips, one has a number 15 and the pipe has to be secure to prevent leaks.
Pipe 4 on this diagram is the return oil feed to the sump.
The leak appears to be O.K. from the picture.
It's a high pressure feed, and if it were leaking badly then the oil would spray everywhere.

vanny · Post by **vanny** » 24 Jan 2005, 21:34

The triangular bit that bolts the turbo to the block apears to be upside down on the Expert Block.
If we assume that the turbo mounts in about the same position, then the exhaust outlet is in a very similar location. Have you actually tried fiting the engine into the bay yet? It sounds like you might have been doing a lot of choping and changing to get the engine to exactly match what the Pug is supposedly meant to have! Given PSA make pretty universal engine bays i'd suggest you try actually fitting the engine in before worrying that something isnt quite right.
To me the oil feed pipe looks pretty clean in that picture. SOME residue is perfectly fine and acceptable, if there was a problem it would more than likely gush rather than trickle.
Get the engine in the bodge it together with duct tape!

mrbump · Post by **mrbump** » 25 Jan 2005, 00:27

Sorry, I thought you had meant that the turbo was the wrong way round on the xantia engine you had bought! My mistake. You have to wonder why then that the same turbo is fitted in a different configuration on the master? If is for clearance issues then you might have to get the right 'master' manifold (like in your pic) and downpipe and install it the way it should be. As vanny says, I wouldnt look too much further into this and go buying things untill the engine is being fitted. At a guess, I would reckon that the turbo is mounted that way to allow all the air pipes, to and from, to be routed on the left of the engine as you look at it. That would mean none of this silly 180deg bends in the inlet hoses just before going into the turbo that all the zx/xan/405 have as standard, a very restrictive design.
Theres nothing you can actually do about the welds inside the exhaust. Just try and make each section that you weld as flush as possible to keep the weld from seeping through too much. The weld itself will rust slower than the rest of the exhaust, the problem is where the bumps in the weld make nice little holes and pools for rust worms to live!
PS. dont be tempted to use the n/a manifold which is easier to get hoses around. I did this and popped two of them. They look sturdy enough, but arent.
Cheers

vanny · Post by **vanny** » 25 Jan 2005, 01:53

Looking at my Exhaust Manual! the Evasion has a dog leg in the down pipe (much like the BX 1.9 NA), the Xantia on the other hand has LESS of a dog leg! Now looking at the other engines in the Evasion, they ALL have the dog leg, which makes me think that this turbo arrangement is to bring the exhaust out straight, POSSIBLY to save on having different exhausts, but maybe get round an obstacle.
So again its a case of get the engine back in! If its just to fit the same exhaust then i bet you good money either a BX1.7TD, BX1.9NA, or XantiaTD down pipe will fit perfect!
If you want the 'Exhaust Manual' drop me an email, or come chat on MSN messenger!

Wookey · Post by **Wookey** » 25 Jan 2005, 06:32

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mrbump

You have to wonder why then that the same turbo is fitted in a different configuration on the master?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Expert, not master.

OK. I understand now. In fact it is the exhaust manifold (and oil pipes and turbo-to-exhaust pipe) that change - the turbo is indeed the same model. As vanny says 'the triangle is upside down' is the bit that gives it away. I had managed to confuse myself on this point earlier.
Now if I could just find an expert TD for spares I could go and get all these bits off it, including the downpipe, and life would be simple.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If is for clearance issues then you might have to get the right 'master' manifold (like in your pic) and downpipe and install it the way it should be. As vanny says, I wouldnt look too much further into this and go buying things untill the engine is being fitted.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I reckon there is enough space for either configuration to go in - certainly for the exhaust. The intercooler pipes could be trickier, but I think that'll be OK too. But yes I'll give this a go - probably at the w/e (I still have some painting to do).
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">At a guess, I would reckon that the turbo is mounted that way to allow all the air pipes, to and from, to be routed on the left of the engine as you look at it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yep - I think the layout is better with it the 'expert' way round.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">PS. dont be tempted to use the n/a manifold which is easier to get hoses around. I did this and popped two of them. They look sturdy enough, but arent.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is the rectangular plastic manifold?

Wookey · Post by **Wookey** » 25 Jan 2005, 06:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by vanny

Looking at my Exhaust Manual! the Evasion has a dog leg in the down pipe (much like the BX 1.9 NA), the Xantia on the other hand has LESS of a dog leg!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sorry - I as talking bollocks above - I didn't mean evasion - I meant synergie. it's 806/synergie/ulysse expert/dispatch/scudo. Apologies for any confusion. I've mailed you re the manual.

mrbump · Post by **mrbump** » 25 Jan 2005, 16:17

any na manifold. I used a bx one and a 405 one. the second one I reinforced with metal plates all along the joins and it split in the middle. They took a ggod bit of presssure when testing them first <25psi. But when fitted, you could actually see them 'breathing' with the boost. The continual strain caused them to go pop. And my passenger so nearly did at the time as well on the second (reinforced one). you might think it sounds stupid to even try these manifolds, but I had one lying around, it had a hose connectiom, good long runners to go with the cam and when tested was strong enough.
cheers

NiSk · Post by **NiSk** » 25 Jan 2005, 18:22

The evasion and the synergie are the same beast - just different names in different markets . .
//NiSK

Post by **RichardW** » 25 Jan 2005, 19:19

Presumably PSA had a good reason for fitting the different turbo layout with all the parts sourcing and manufacturing difficulties this brings - particularly from the point of view of the turbo outlet that appears to point downwards. Your best bet might be to contact one of the turbo overhaul companies and see if you can exchange your Xantia unit for an appropriate Expert unit - this will get you out of both the non-standard exhaust and air trunking problems. Might cost though!

Wookey · Post by **Wookey** » 25 Jan 2005, 20:37

I think the layout is just more sensible this way round (for a front-mounted intercooler and nearside-mouted air filter). The turbo itself is not a problem - it it's the manifolds before and after it (and the oild feed and return). Turns out that on a boxer the NA and turbo manifolds are the same - it's just the expert where they are different. I can get the correct manifold from any boxer or a TD expert. But not from 806/synergie/ulysse as they all(?) have an extra EGR spigot, which implies a whole load of other bits I haven't got.
I am inclined to think that my life will be made a lot easier by getting the right manifold so I can use standard bits. I just have to find a suitable donor vehicle, but they aren't particularly common. Good job I'm not in _too_ much of a hurry. I think I'll just cash in the tax for Feb....

mrbump · Post by **mrbump** » 25 Jan 2005, 21:51

just thought, when you refit the turbo using the 'correct' manifolds, your oil feed will be pointing up in the air! But luckily you can just release thfour locking tabs on the back of the turbo and rotate the exhaust housing to the correct angle.