Oh oh! - Cold weather - xantia poor starting again

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jack.dempsey
Posts: 116
Joined: 05 Mar 2003, 17:57
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: BX TZD @ 250K miles (J reg),
Xantia TD @ 165K miles (R reg),
Xantia 2.1 TD (R reg)
and tow a caravan with them all (not at the same time)

Oh oh! - Cold weather - xantia poor starting again

Post by jack.dempsey »

Here we are again, the cold weather is with us again and the Xantia TD has become a pig to start in the morning. Have already replaced glow pugs (again - this time with 'beru' type) and also replaced leak off hoses and fuel pipe from filter to injection pump. This has made a slight difference in that in the mornings I don't seem to have to crank the engine for quite as long - maybe only 30 seconds (as opposed to maybe a minute !!) before it fires up and runs. My next line of attack is to fit a non return valve in the fuel line somewhere - this has been recommended in these pages before - but I'm looking for recommendations as to where I can acquire such a valve and also where the best place in the fuel line to fit it would be. This is not a new problem - although there's currently 160K on the clock I have documemtary evidence from the service history that this cold weather starting problem was being addressed at about 40K miles. Trouble is by the time you get really fired up into sorting it - and get the essential motivation - and wait for a good day to do it, the weather is getting warmer and it ceases to be a problem. Critical temperature seems to be about 5 degrees 'C', anything at or below this and car is a swine to start. My old BX TZD with 250K on the clock fires on the first revolution of the engine.
NiSk
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Post by NiSk »

Once again, does pumping up the fuel with the hand pump before starting make any difference?
If so, you've probably got a fuel filter that's leaking in air. If not, start looking at the cold start mechanism.
//NiSk
jack.dempsey
Posts: 116
Joined: 05 Mar 2003, 17:57
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: BX TZD @ 250K miles (J reg),
Xantia TD @ 165K miles (R reg),
Xantia 2.1 TD (R reg)
and tow a caravan with them all (not at the same time)

Post by jack.dempsey »

Did all this stuff last year - never got it pinned down before the advent of spring. I've put a transparent fuel line in from the filter to the injector pump as part of my last weekends activities (along with glo-plugs - nice job eh?) so I'll be able to see if there's any air being blown through the system and then hopefully track its source down. Trouble is monday to friday I'm on the road at 7 a.m. and its still dark (and often cold and wet) at that time - so the inclination to lift the bonnet and get torch and pump fuel and get dirty hands doesn't come to the fore. Saturday however I shall be there - all be it a bit later in the day when I'll definitely be able to see what's going on. I did do some pumping last year that didn't seem to make any noticeable difference but then I got thinking about the state of the fuel cut off solenoid when doing this - presumably it should be open i.e. ignition on (and imobiliser code entered) ?
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AndersDK
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Post by AndersDK »

As NiSk suggests - your problem could very well be the coldstart device.
Have a peep here for an easy way testing it :
Diesel coldstart device
jack.dempsey
Posts: 116
Joined: 05 Mar 2003, 17:57
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: BX TZD @ 250K miles (J reg),
Xantia TD @ 165K miles (R reg),
Xantia 2.1 TD (R reg)
and tow a caravan with them all (not at the same time)

Post by jack.dempsey »

Interesting and useful to those of us who have the water temperature type of cold start device which I know my BXTZD has. On my Xantia however, when I investigated my cold start device last year, I found that it is controlled by a vacuum solenoid valve and defaults to the cold start position. As the engine warms up the ECU sends a supply to the solenoid which then allows vacuum through to cold start diaphram and effectively moves the cold start lever into the normal running position. This appears to function as prescribed. There is a second solenoid valve which is supposed to open the emmission control valve between the inlet/exhaust manifold - but I do know that this one does not operate (electro valve duff). It is my understanding that this would reduce emmissions at higher engine revs and should not effect the cold starting problem.
RichardW
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Post by RichardW »

Have you checked the valve clearances? Known to close up on higher mileage engines leading to loss of compression when cold.
mpr1956
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Post by mpr1956 »

I would like to echo richardw's point... my bx had the same sort of symptoms at around 200k, and that was "valve seat regression" reducing the valve clearances to the point that the valves were unable to close properly. adjusting the clearances was a simple and effective cure (deep sigh of relief). I hope your problem is as easy to solve !
mikeg
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Post by mikeg »

Jack,if you haven't already, try this. Switch on, wait for the glowplug light to go out, wait until the relay clicks, then try starting. This has worked for me in the past. Also, have you tried a different relay? It might help.
Bol, Mike.
jack.dempsey
Posts: 116
Joined: 05 Mar 2003, 17:57
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: BX TZD @ 250K miles (J reg),
Xantia TD @ 165K miles (R reg),
Xantia 2.1 TD (R reg)
and tow a caravan with them all (not at the same time)

Post by jack.dempsey »

Hmmm intersting points - the valve clearances sound pretty convincing but for the fact that the car has had this problem since 40K miles. Thanks also for the wait a bit longer suggestion - which I've also tried - even recycling the ignition/heater phase for three or four times doesn't help (old BX trick when preheaters were failing). I'm currently investigating those little electro valves fitted to 96/97 Xantias that control cold start/fast idle and the EGR valve. I'm pretty sure they are seized and I'm not sure whether its possble to free them. I think they may have been like this for some time and I also think that some monkey has adjusted the cold start/fast idle screws to lower the tickover to an acceptable level thereby defeating the cold start mechanism (still only a theory). HBOL is rather economic (as in no mention) with the detail for this later vacuum operated cold start device (the default state is cold start and the vacuum when switched by the above mentioned electro valves actually pulls the cold start lever into the normal running position - or would if it was working). Another 'black hand' saturday - still its only raining a bit !
jack.dempsey
Posts: 116
Joined: 05 Mar 2003, 17:57
Location: United Kingdom
My Cars: BX TZD @ 250K miles (J reg),
Xantia TD @ 165K miles (R reg),
Xantia 2.1 TD (R reg)
and tow a caravan with them all (not at the same time)

Post by jack.dempsey »

OK been there and done that. Notwithstanding the fact that the electrovalves were 'stuffed' I decided to break into one to see what made it 'tick' (or not in my case). I had to saw through the metal retaining bracket and then could remove one end. Talk about simplicity itself - is just a coil with small bobin shaped sprung loaded armature inside. Obviously almost impossible to stick so must have failed electrically. So I broke into the other end where the plug is - in fact I accidentally broke the plug off whilst gently tapping (honest gov') the valve prior to the above dismantling. Anyway I found both ends of the coil protruding (lucky eh?) and soldered them back onto fly leads which I soldered to the underside of the plug. Stuck it all back together with a glue gun and liberal amounts of hot melt glue - and guess what - no one more surprised than me but the damn thing now works. I've hung it back into the car pending replacements - how can Citroen charge £30 each for these - talk about money for old rope !! So my cold start/normal running transition is now working and I've adjusted up for about 1000-1050 rpm cold start and about 800-850 rpm normal running. The little vacuum jobby energises as the car warms up, or if the revs increase a bit, to take the pump away from the cold start position. Bad news is though that the cold starting problem is not cured - Booooh !! So it looks as though next weekend I'll be trying to find my way into the engine top cover to check the valve clearances as suggested. Does everything have to come off the engine to get in there..? I've never yet managed to remove the plastic induction pipes to/from the intercooler. They dissappear down the back of the engine - is there a secret to releasing them from there - or do I need a little trained monkey to work from below ? IS it possible to lift the valve cover without taking all the pipework off ?
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