Diesel Power !!!!!
Moderator: RichardW
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oilyspanner
- Posts: 1246
- Joined: 26 Oct 2003, 16:08
- Location: United Kingdom
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Hi,
No offence, but ive never liked the idea of those metal headgaskets. I think it is much more important to get a nice flat head and block and use a normal 'paper' type one. Ive seen the water and oil mix on those metal ones without the gasket actually blowing, but this may be due to not enough torque. Also every time I've seen a gasket go again not long after being changed, it seems to be one of those metal ones. I know race cars use metal-composite-metal hg's but they dont look the same as those ones when you look at them together.
The gasket I used is a nice thick paper one with good 'rubber' sealing rings around all the passages. It cost about £45 i think but I looked at a few before I chose it. Had to be sure. I'll look up the name of it again. It just looked like it would really seal everything separately and was the thickest I could find. Make sure and use new bolts and spacers for the td's as well (v.important).
Twiss, If you want to protect the gasket from the dangers of big boost, then get the block oringed to take 1.5mm welding wire, but dont bother unless you know someone who has done it before and you also plan to run >20psi.
Andy, I have been using the na cam with the turbo donk now for about 9000 miles, and can say that it is a great improvement at the top end.
The low power (1000-1500)does actually seem to be better at the moment as well, but there is a noticeable gap around 15/1600-18/1900rpm, like just when the turbo starts to spool. As you say, with the charge getting blown out the exhaust. Hopefully by advancing the timing slightly the injector will put more fuel in once the ev has closed. Lots of experimentation there, maybe even a vernier pulley?[:)] Definately to be tested on the rollers soon.
Also the VNT turbo I have may help a little with low rev boosting[:p][:D] Should have that installed before too long now.
Also, try the 405td radiator (new of course) for about 1.5x the capacity of the zxtd one. It <i>almost</i> fits in the standard location, but is too tall so you need to cut a hole in the bonnet reinforcement, and is too wide, so you need to shave about 2cm from the zx fan housings. You need the top and bottom hoses to be changed as well, but it is a worthwhile upgrade if your old zx rad is knakered (which it will be).
As my car stands, a mates new 115bhp MG ZR TD with 8000miles on it cant keep up, even with a few headstarts! Poor guy tried all day and was miffed to say the least. And my zx is still only running less than 15psi with pump settings back at standard. But shows that intercooler, intake, cam, headwork and exhaust mods do work.
Anyway just my 2cent. Plenty more to come on the zx project! Good to see some more people still se the potential of the old xudt[;)]
Cheers
Greg
No offence, but ive never liked the idea of those metal headgaskets. I think it is much more important to get a nice flat head and block and use a normal 'paper' type one. Ive seen the water and oil mix on those metal ones without the gasket actually blowing, but this may be due to not enough torque. Also every time I've seen a gasket go again not long after being changed, it seems to be one of those metal ones. I know race cars use metal-composite-metal hg's but they dont look the same as those ones when you look at them together.
The gasket I used is a nice thick paper one with good 'rubber' sealing rings around all the passages. It cost about £45 i think but I looked at a few before I chose it. Had to be sure. I'll look up the name of it again. It just looked like it would really seal everything separately and was the thickest I could find. Make sure and use new bolts and spacers for the td's as well (v.important).
Twiss, If you want to protect the gasket from the dangers of big boost, then get the block oringed to take 1.5mm welding wire, but dont bother unless you know someone who has done it before and you also plan to run >20psi.
Andy, I have been using the na cam with the turbo donk now for about 9000 miles, and can say that it is a great improvement at the top end.
The low power (1000-1500)does actually seem to be better at the moment as well, but there is a noticeable gap around 15/1600-18/1900rpm, like just when the turbo starts to spool. As you say, with the charge getting blown out the exhaust. Hopefully by advancing the timing slightly the injector will put more fuel in once the ev has closed. Lots of experimentation there, maybe even a vernier pulley?[:)] Definately to be tested on the rollers soon.
Also the VNT turbo I have may help a little with low rev boosting[:p][:D] Should have that installed before too long now.
Also, try the 405td radiator (new of course) for about 1.5x the capacity of the zxtd one. It <i>almost</i> fits in the standard location, but is too tall so you need to cut a hole in the bonnet reinforcement, and is too wide, so you need to shave about 2cm from the zx fan housings. You need the top and bottom hoses to be changed as well, but it is a worthwhile upgrade if your old zx rad is knakered (which it will be).
As my car stands, a mates new 115bhp MG ZR TD with 8000miles on it cant keep up, even with a few headstarts! Poor guy tried all day and was miffed to say the least. And my zx is still only running less than 15psi with pump settings back at standard. But shows that intercooler, intake, cam, headwork and exhaust mods do work.
Anyway just my 2cent. Plenty more to come on the zx project! Good to see some more people still se the potential of the old xudt[;)]
Cheers
Greg
I forgot to say that I emailed that guy again that I got the bottom mount from to see if he has the gearbox mounts in stock yet.
Have you lot seen any of these goodies yet?
http://www.rallycar.com/ some of the 306 stuff should fit the zx.
Off topic but, has anyone looked at the difference between 306/zx petrol and diesel exhaust systems? I was hoping to get a cheap stainless one from a breakers for a 306 gti and hoped it would fit without too much bother?
cheers
Have you lot seen any of these goodies yet?
http://www.rallycar.com/ some of the 306 stuff should fit the zx.
Off topic but, has anyone looked at the difference between 306/zx petrol and diesel exhaust systems? I was hoping to get a cheap stainless one from a breakers for a 306 gti and hoped it would fit without too much bother?
cheers
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mrbump</i>
Make sure and use new bolts and spacers for the td's as well (v.important).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
what difference do the spacers make?
I used 1.7td head bolts and no spacers (forgot to put them in) and havent had any problems what so ever! But then looking at it i cant see any reason to have them there, there just really long spacers, but the bolts arent any different in length from what i remember.
If the 405 TD is a bigger rad will a Xantia intercooler still fit round it? Looking in the scrap the other day, the XM rad and intercooler seem like a very good bet, im gonna try this as soon as i have time/money.
Looking at the rally site, me thinksa a nice new alternator might be inline, though im not convinced that going from 85amp to 120 is a wonderfull idea. Those slim line fans would be a marvelous bonus as theres not a lot of space down the front of the intercooler/rad combo on mine! But i guess the LSD is a pipe dream
Make sure and use new bolts and spacers for the td's as well (v.important).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
what difference do the spacers make?
I used 1.7td head bolts and no spacers (forgot to put them in) and havent had any problems what so ever! But then looking at it i cant see any reason to have them there, there just really long spacers, but the bolts arent any different in length from what i remember.
If the 405 TD is a bigger rad will a Xantia intercooler still fit round it? Looking in the scrap the other day, the XM rad and intercooler seem like a very good bet, im gonna try this as soon as i have time/money.
Looking at the rally site, me thinksa a nice new alternator might be inline, though im not convinced that going from 85amp to 120 is a wonderfull idea. Those slim line fans would be a marvelous bonus as theres not a lot of space down the front of the intercooler/rad combo on mine! But i guess the LSD is a pipe dream
ok so which would be best a metal head gasket of a think paper/cork one ?
If i get one of these metal head gasket i could add alittle head gaskett sealent to add an extra seal?
looks like i am going to be buying afew parts from GSF soon.
List of things to buy :- new head gaskett, new thrmo sense, new relays for the fans, new rad senser, new temp housing seal ring, new volcane bumper, new bolts and spacers, new cam belt ten set, new alt tensioner, new alt belt. think thats every thing.
on the cam belt tensioner set does that come with belt and the tensioner? I know it sounds stupid but just like to make sure.
Have i missed any thing like standard parts i should replace before doing the tuning.
If i get one of these metal head gasket i could add alittle head gaskett sealent to add an extra seal?
looks like i am going to be buying afew parts from GSF soon.
List of things to buy :- new head gaskett, new thrmo sense, new relays for the fans, new rad senser, new temp housing seal ring, new volcane bumper, new bolts and spacers, new cam belt ten set, new alt tensioner, new alt belt. think thats every thing.
on the cam belt tensioner set does that come with belt and the tensioner? I know it sounds stupid but just like to make sure.
Have i missed any thing like standard parts i should replace before doing the tuning.
oil change to B3 type engine oil (Castrol GTD for example), and a new oil filter, i've currently got a Xsara HDi filter, but im gonna swap to a Xantia V6 filter i think. There bigger, alow more oil flow and have more cleaning 'element' inside so should maintain higher performance for longer.
New air filter if your not gonna go for a performance panel.
Maybe some diesel injector treatment (STP or the likes), may as well make sure its on top notch before messing with her
And if it where a 'proper' Cit then i'd suggest a Hydraflush and LHM change to reduce losses from the HP pump working extra hard to push old LHM round (this doesnt happen with DOT 4 fortunatley).
Oh, make sure you have enough gear oil in AND its a decent gear oil. Dont want you gear box falling to bits for the same of 500ml of gear oil
New air filter if your not gonna go for a performance panel.
Maybe some diesel injector treatment (STP or the likes), may as well make sure its on top notch before messing with her
And if it where a 'proper' Cit then i'd suggest a Hydraflush and LHM change to reduce losses from the HP pump working extra hard to push old LHM round (this doesnt happen with DOT 4 fortunatley).
Oh, make sure you have enough gear oil in AND its a decent gear oil. Dont want you gear box falling to bits for the same of 500ml of gear oil
i replaced the gear oil with the the stuff from a cit dealer, i have ont he moment a raceX air filter and yes it is alittle loud but that doesnt bother me. i tend to use Forte diesel injector cleaner. was going to replace the PAS fiuld in the summer was going to use castrol Dexron stuff. i already use Castrol GTD for turbo diesels.
just looked though the GSf site to get part numbers. the thermo stat under the fuel filter housing (part number n17624) is the right one theres not a nother senser i need for the cooling system? i have got the switch for the rad.
just looked though the GSf site to get part numbers. the thermo stat under the fuel filter housing (part number n17624) is the right one theres not a nother senser i need for the cooling system? i have got the switch for the rad.
The spacers on the headbolts allow for more thermal expansion whilst still retaining the torque, as turbo diesels run alot hotter than the na ones. Also helps spread the load accross the head more effectively. The Turbo diesel ones are longer (by about the length of the spacer funyy that!) and are usually dark couloured whilst the others are chrome looking. If you get a headgasket set from a parts place, they invairiably send you a FAI one with short (na) bolts and a metal gasket. I think these bolts might also be the cause of a few blown td hg's soon after they are done.
Twiss, if you can afford it, it is worth getting the injectors rebuilt and also getting the pump tested/rebuilt, although this is not cheap at £25 per inj and £100 just to test and reset the pump (lsuk) which will probably be down on pressure at least.
Price for getting the head skimmed (£45), grinding in the original valves again another £20 if you get someone else to do it.
Otherwise, just get stuck in!
Twiss, if you can afford it, it is worth getting the injectors rebuilt and also getting the pump tested/rebuilt, although this is not cheap at £25 per inj and £100 just to test and reset the pump (lsuk) which will probably be down on pressure at least.
Price for getting the head skimmed (£45), grinding in the original valves again another £20 if you get someone else to do it.
Otherwise, just get stuck in!
Hi people.
Right on the poly bushes side of things can u get poly top suspension mounts as well?
Those engine mounts (poly ones for the pug),they r only the lower engine mount and the upper engine mount ? I thought i would ask ulot few more things.
I am going to change the some cooling parts like switchs and relays first, then change the headgaskett and bolts and engine mounts.After that hopefully have the hybrid turbo fitted and tuned.
should i do any of those things in a different order to help things along? and /or get some more parts while i am doing the bits.
Right on the poly bushes side of things can u get poly top suspension mounts as well?
Those engine mounts (poly ones for the pug),they r only the lower engine mount and the upper engine mount ? I thought i would ask ulot few more things.
I am going to change the some cooling parts like switchs and relays first, then change the headgaskett and bolts and engine mounts.After that hopefully have the hybrid turbo fitted and tuned.
should i do any of those things in a different order to help things along? and /or get some more parts while i am doing the bits.
I dont see the point of changing the camshaft. Diesels dont rev very highly partly because of the pump (not so much of an issue now with high pressure electronic injection) but mainly because the high compression required means that the inlet valve cant stay open past bdc for too long (or it wont start and run at low revs) and also at TDC both the exhaust and inlet cant overlap because they are too close to the piston. This is why diesels dont rev past 4.5k very well.
Race cams in petrol engines use the dynamic properties of the fast flowing fluids to increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine and to increase exhaust scavenging. This wont really work in a diesel because the engine wont rev high enough and also doing this lowers the (static) compression ratio and so it wouldn't be able to start and run at low engine speeds.
Engines are most efficient at around the peak torque engine speed because they effectively have the highest compression ratio at this speed due to maximum cylinder filling. The thermal efficiency of an otto cycle and a compression ignition engine is related to the compression ratio.
Race cams in petrol engines use the dynamic properties of the fast flowing fluids to increase the volumetric efficiency of the engine and to increase exhaust scavenging. This wont really work in a diesel because the engine wont rev high enough and also doing this lowers the (static) compression ratio and so it wouldn't be able to start and run at low engine speeds.
Engines are most efficient at around the peak torque engine speed because they effectively have the highest compression ratio at this speed due to maximum cylinder filling. The thermal efficiency of an otto cycle and a compression ignition engine is related to the compression ratio.
The 'tuning' (ie, optimisation of boost, max fuelling and off boost fuelling) can be done for free and can yield as much as 20-25bhp on a healthy engine. conversely, the cam and turbo go beyond the law of diminishing returns and won't give a great deal for the price. Nitrous would give more for the same money and is eminently safe on a diesel. TBH though, if you're into spending that kind of money then just sell it and buy a later HDi powered citroen with 110 brake upwards as stock.
The paper OE citroen air filter is actually one of the best in this application, offering the finest filtration and much more surface area than a K & N cone filter. A good shielded cold air feed to the standard airbox is desirable if you're playing with the boost,as is a boost gauge.
Water, or water/methanol injection can be improvised cheaply and can have startling results on the power front and is massively more cost effective than a cam or blower mod. It act's as a 'virtual' intercooler and (if it is used) a methanol mix is good for mahoosive power gains. This has never caught on over here but is very popular in the states where big bore diesel trucks rule supreme. Look at the forums on the UK Aquamist website for more pointers on this.
The paper OE citroen air filter is actually one of the best in this application, offering the finest filtration and much more surface area than a K & N cone filter. A good shielded cold air feed to the standard airbox is desirable if you're playing with the boost,as is a boost gauge.
Water, or water/methanol injection can be improvised cheaply and can have startling results on the power front and is massively more cost effective than a cam or blower mod. It act's as a 'virtual' intercooler and (if it is used) a methanol mix is good for mahoosive power gains. This has never caught on over here but is very popular in the states where big bore diesel trucks rule supreme. Look at the forums on the UK Aquamist website for more pointers on this.