<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What safety features does a conventional braking system have against fluid levels being low or lost that the Xantia doesnt?
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Seperate systemsfor a start - you say the rear brakes are fed off the rear suspension, however a leak near the resevoir will not only cause your suspension to suffer, power steering to go as well as your brakes (all round according to http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... IC_ID=5256)
On a conventional system the braking system is split (as is the resevoir) so that if you have a leak from one half of the system then you'll still have at least half the system working.
You won't lose your steering if your brake fluid goes either, and vice verse.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As for the welded door hinges cracking, this was a known fault with the Xantia, not a design problem but a manufacturing defect, the hinges were not welded on sufficiently strongly on many estates.
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Do you think that this isn't a design fault?
A "known fault" (i.e it happens regularly to estates) <b>is</b> a design fault as the design engineers have not correctly worked out the tensile strength needed for the attachment points for the front doors ;o)
The manufacturers wouldn't have suddenly decided to change the original spec of the design engineers drawings LOL! More than they're jobs are worth!
Thanks for the help all,
Brodie
Guess What - Xantia Suspension!
Moderator: RichardW
In theory, you are right. In praxis, accidents because of hydraulic failure in Citroen vehicles are very rare. On the other side, there was, for example, a number of accidents because of leaking vacuum pipes (VW Golf, Polo '98, '99 for example) or braking fluid boiling or air in the system ...
Not to mention how easy is to exhaust vacuum on many diesel vehicles by stepping on the brake several times, because of vacuum pump being too small ...
In any case, there are many design faults in every vehicle
Not to mention how easy is to exhaust vacuum on many diesel vehicles by stepping on the brake several times, because of vacuum pump being too small ...
In any case, there are many design faults in every vehicle
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DoubleChevron
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You really do need to be utterly brain dead to run out of brakes in a Citroen, infact it's probably unheard of ...
You see first you have the most anoying buzzer known to man annoying the sh!t out of you (with the appropriate flashing light), then you lose power steering (big deal), some considerable time later you will lose suspension height and suspension. You are now bouncing along on the bump stops with a light flashing, an alarm sounding and no power steering. You will still have brakes as they are the absolute LAST thing to lose pressure do to the priority valving. In the bitter end you you finally losing the brakes.
How many people are stupid enough to be still driving along with no suspension & no steering ?? It's actually VERY safe. If you rupture a brake line there is a whole 5litres of reserve fluid there !!! You will have plenty of time to pull over before it's exhausted.
Citroens have been using these brakes in literally (no exagaration) MILLIONS of cars since 1955. Accidents due to brake loss in the last 50years are basically unheard of (can any other manufacturer claim that ??). I think you have your wires crossed about it being dangerous.
seeya,,
Shane L.
You see first you have the most anoying buzzer known to man annoying the sh!t out of you (with the appropriate flashing light), then you lose power steering (big deal), some considerable time later you will lose suspension height and suspension. You are now bouncing along on the bump stops with a light flashing, an alarm sounding and no power steering. You will still have brakes as they are the absolute LAST thing to lose pressure do to the priority valving. In the bitter end you you finally losing the brakes.
How many people are stupid enough to be still driving along with no suspension & no steering ?? It's actually VERY safe. If you rupture a brake line there is a whole 5litres of reserve fluid there !!! You will have plenty of time to pull over before it's exhausted.
Citroens have been using these brakes in literally (no exagaration) MILLIONS of cars since 1955. Accidents due to brake loss in the last 50years are basically unheard of (can any other manufacturer claim that ??). I think you have your wires crossed about it being dangerous.
seeya,,
Shane L.
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Dave Burns
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The suspension spheres are only the cars springs, no matter what state they are in, or what the passenger load is in the vehicle, they have nothing to do with the ride height, ride height is maintained by the rotational position of the anti roll bar acting on the height corrector valve, as weight is added to the car it pushes the suspension down as oil is forced further into the spheres, this naturally raises the gas pressure in the spheres by compression and so you have a variable spring, the valve opens in the height corrector and increases hydraulic pressure in the suspension struts which lift the body back up to the original ride height.
Most people never touch the height control lever (never mind grease the linkage) and because of that the mechanism simply goes stiff or siezes up completely, this can cause further problems as there is then no give in the mechanism to accomodate suspension movements, the weak part which is the plastic link rod then often fails, properly maintained this system doesn't cause any more problems than conventional steel suspension and is often easier to repair, by those who aren't phased by it at least.
Your average repairer hardly ever sees one of these cars so when they do get one in they are often in the dark with it, would really rather not touch it and in all honesty shouldn't because they can make just as big a balls of it as the unsuspecting owner who then has to pay for their learning experience.
The anti-sink valves stop the car sinking by trapping the oil in the suspension struts obviously, but they are hydraulicly operated, this is just one of the many areas where Haynes fails to deliver fully, they rightly tell you to leave the engine running when lowering the body on leter models, but they say switch off and depressurise as soon as the body stops sinking, WRONG, because when the body has stopped sinking, only then do the spheres start discharging, good ones will empty faster than ones that have lost some gas pressure, so switching the engine off without a minute or two idleing to keep the anti-sink valves open will allow them to close before ALL the spheres are empty, then as you found out you get sprayed with this trapped pressure when you open these areas of the system.
If this car was ok before the kid got his hands on it then its just the linkage (or height correctors) that are at fault.
The non working anti-sink valve is either piped up the wrong way or has possibly got dirt in it.
I had a 205 that suffered total brake failure due to master cylinder rubbers being worn at 200,000 miles, a conventional braking system is no good when you can't generate pressure to operate it, that car was written off in the subsequent accident fortunately not involving anyone else and no serious injuries, that particular scenario is not possible with a wet Citroen and is one of the main reasons I now drive one.
Dave
Most people never touch the height control lever (never mind grease the linkage) and because of that the mechanism simply goes stiff or siezes up completely, this can cause further problems as there is then no give in the mechanism to accomodate suspension movements, the weak part which is the plastic link rod then often fails, properly maintained this system doesn't cause any more problems than conventional steel suspension and is often easier to repair, by those who aren't phased by it at least.
Your average repairer hardly ever sees one of these cars so when they do get one in they are often in the dark with it, would really rather not touch it and in all honesty shouldn't because they can make just as big a balls of it as the unsuspecting owner who then has to pay for their learning experience.
The anti-sink valves stop the car sinking by trapping the oil in the suspension struts obviously, but they are hydraulicly operated, this is just one of the many areas where Haynes fails to deliver fully, they rightly tell you to leave the engine running when lowering the body on leter models, but they say switch off and depressurise as soon as the body stops sinking, WRONG, because when the body has stopped sinking, only then do the spheres start discharging, good ones will empty faster than ones that have lost some gas pressure, so switching the engine off without a minute or two idleing to keep the anti-sink valves open will allow them to close before ALL the spheres are empty, then as you found out you get sprayed with this trapped pressure when you open these areas of the system.
If this car was ok before the kid got his hands on it then its just the linkage (or height correctors) that are at fault.
The non working anti-sink valve is either piped up the wrong way or has possibly got dirt in it.
I had a 205 that suffered total brake failure due to master cylinder rubbers being worn at 200,000 miles, a conventional braking system is no good when you can't generate pressure to operate it, that car was written off in the subsequent accident fortunately not involving anyone else and no serious injuries, that particular scenario is not possible with a wet Citroen and is one of the main reasons I now drive one.
Dave
Thanks Dave for the excellent post.
To all you Citroen owners who're on my back (so to speak) I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that <b>ALL</b> french cars suffer with poor build/design quality in some shape or form.
Peugeots (IMHO) are unreliable electrically (as a rule of thumb), Citroens are a reasonable car but let down by poor design <i>in some areas</i>, and Renault are just a plain old pain in the backside maintenance wise (I've never known a manufacturer make so many "special" tools, or things like oil filters so inaccesible!)
There are many cars from the Orient whose build quality is suspect (Lexus for one, owned/operated from a usually good company like Toyota!) however I have had 2 Japanese cars (Mazda/Mitsubishi) and collectively they have outlasted/ are outlasting friends french heaps that are newer and doing fewer miles per year, despite the Jap stuff using steel that is below par for the prevailing conditions in this country, and generally being driven to stupid mileages.
If it wasn't for a huge Red Stag the Mitsi would still have been going strong too, with (by now) approaching 200k miles.
Example - mates Xantia has 80k on the clock, FCSH (until he bought it 2 years ago with c.70k on the clock) and My Mazda is 18 months older, has 98k on the clock, and had a FSH (Non-Mazda) until I bought it 2.5 years ago with 52k on the clock(I service it myself)
In that time, he has spent somewhere approaching £1k getting it sorted when it has broken, or the brakes have siezed or the anti-sink valve needed replacing, or something else gone wrong with it. That figure doesn't include tyres or servicing. How much is it going to be to repair the door hinges too? about £600??
I have spent c. £300 on mine - £70 battery (had to be fitted by Mazda for 3 year warranty - that bites!) £180 on parts/ servicing (including coolant and brake fluid renewal, and cambelt done by Mazda main dealer), and £45 on brake pads not including tyres to make a fair comparison (although that only totals about £100)
He put about 10.5k miles on his car in 2 years, I've put 46k in 2.5 - ask yourselves this, who is the clear winner financially?
Oh and bear in mind his is 2l, mine is 2.5 v6 - expensive cars to run, and I still get better fuel economy than he does!
Citroens may be great cars, but (IMHO) only <b>if you have the money/know-how to service them regularly</b>
I'm not knocking your choice of cars, just please stop trying to ram "how good" these cars are down my neck - when his car costs less to run than mine, or any of my friends with french cars don't call me and ask if I can do some work on their cars for a clear two months I'll be a convert.
Or if there is a cold day in hell - whichever is the sooner!
Thanks
Brodie
To all you Citroen owners who're on my back (so to speak) I'm entitled to my opinion, and my opinion is that <b>ALL</b> french cars suffer with poor build/design quality in some shape or form.
Peugeots (IMHO) are unreliable electrically (as a rule of thumb), Citroens are a reasonable car but let down by poor design <i>in some areas</i>, and Renault are just a plain old pain in the backside maintenance wise (I've never known a manufacturer make so many "special" tools, or things like oil filters so inaccesible!)
There are many cars from the Orient whose build quality is suspect (Lexus for one, owned/operated from a usually good company like Toyota!) however I have had 2 Japanese cars (Mazda/Mitsubishi) and collectively they have outlasted/ are outlasting friends french heaps that are newer and doing fewer miles per year, despite the Jap stuff using steel that is below par for the prevailing conditions in this country, and generally being driven to stupid mileages.
If it wasn't for a huge Red Stag the Mitsi would still have been going strong too, with (by now) approaching 200k miles.
Example - mates Xantia has 80k on the clock, FCSH (until he bought it 2 years ago with c.70k on the clock) and My Mazda is 18 months older, has 98k on the clock, and had a FSH (Non-Mazda) until I bought it 2.5 years ago with 52k on the clock(I service it myself)
In that time, he has spent somewhere approaching £1k getting it sorted when it has broken, or the brakes have siezed or the anti-sink valve needed replacing, or something else gone wrong with it. That figure doesn't include tyres or servicing. How much is it going to be to repair the door hinges too? about £600??
I have spent c. £300 on mine - £70 battery (had to be fitted by Mazda for 3 year warranty - that bites!) £180 on parts/ servicing (including coolant and brake fluid renewal, and cambelt done by Mazda main dealer), and £45 on brake pads not including tyres to make a fair comparison (although that only totals about £100)
He put about 10.5k miles on his car in 2 years, I've put 46k in 2.5 - ask yourselves this, who is the clear winner financially?
Oh and bear in mind his is 2l, mine is 2.5 v6 - expensive cars to run, and I still get better fuel economy than he does!
Citroens may be great cars, but (IMHO) only <b>if you have the money/know-how to service them regularly</b>
I'm not knocking your choice of cars, just please stop trying to ram "how good" these cars are down my neck - when his car costs less to run than mine, or any of my friends with french cars don't call me and ask if I can do some work on their cars for a clear two months I'll be a convert.
Or if there is a cold day in hell - whichever is the sooner!
Thanks
Brodie
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DoubleChevron
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Citroens may be great cars, but (IMHO) only if you have the money/know-how to service them regularly
I'm not knocking your choice of cars, just please stop trying to ram "how good" these cars are down my neck - when his car costs less to run than mine, or any of my friends with french cars don't call me and ask if I can do some work on their cars for a clear two months I'll be a convert.
Or if there is a cold day in hell - whichever is the sooner!
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Who's trying to ram anything down your throat ?? I've been driving Citroens for 15years and have NEVER (yes NEVER) replaced a hydraulic item short of spheres (which I regass).
The main thing that lets *every* Citroen I have owned down is the electrical systems they almost fit to there cars.
Eg. About 4years ago I bought my wife a old '86 model BX19. She proceded to pile on in excess of 100,000kms in the next 2years. I replace 1 driveshaft and 1starter motor. BIG DEAL... Yep unreliable as hell, I'm always complaining about the cost of running these cars. The oil/filters & cambelts are just soooooooooooooo expensive.
I know people that have spent literally thousands & thousand of $$$$ on Citroens. Most of the work is poorly done and usually NOT required. The same car I could have run for year with simple maitenance. My uncle runs his own business, doesn't really like to touch Citroens, but he sure as hell would NEVER say jap cars are all you make them out to be. Infact a lot J
panese cars are downright bloody dogs you wouldn't touch with a barge pole.
You want to see some of the $$$ just the people in the building I work in have spent on
japanesse cars 
.
I'd never in a million years say Citroens never stop, but I can guarantee you in no way are most jap cars better. The likes of the Honda Jazz do kill 'em for build quality though (never a Citroen strong point).
seeya,
Shane L.
Citroens may be great cars, but (IMHO) only if you have the money/know-how to service them regularly
I'm not knocking your choice of cars, just please stop trying to ram "how good" these cars are down my neck - when his car costs less to run than mine, or any of my friends with french cars don't call me and ask if I can do some work on their cars for a clear two months I'll be a convert.
Or if there is a cold day in hell - whichever is the sooner!
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Who's trying to ram anything down your throat ?? I've been driving Citroens for 15years and have NEVER (yes NEVER) replaced a hydraulic item short of spheres (which I regass).
The main thing that lets *every* Citroen I have owned down is the electrical systems they almost fit to there cars.
Eg. About 4years ago I bought my wife a old '86 model BX19. She proceded to pile on in excess of 100,000kms in the next 2years. I replace 1 driveshaft and 1starter motor. BIG DEAL... Yep unreliable as hell, I'm always complaining about the cost of running these cars. The oil/filters & cambelts are just soooooooooooooo expensive.
I know people that have spent literally thousands & thousand of $$$$ on Citroens. Most of the work is poorly done and usually NOT required. The same car I could have run for year with simple maitenance. My uncle runs his own business, doesn't really like to touch Citroens, but he sure as hell would NEVER say jap cars are all you make them out to be. Infact a lot J
panese cars are downright bloody dogs you wouldn't touch with a barge pole.You want to see some of the $$$ just the people in the building I work in have spent on
japanesse cars .I'd never in a million years say Citroens never stop, but I can guarantee you in no way are most jap cars better. The likes of the Honda Jazz do kill 'em for build quality though (never a Citroen strong point).
seeya,
Shane L.
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Panjandrum
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Kowalski
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Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k
I've done 50k miles in 2 Xantias over 4 years and have only had to replace consumable service items, nothing major mechanical has let go beside the clutch, but you can't really expect more life than 150k miles from a clutch can you.
I've replaced spheres, glow plugs, brake pads, brake discs. My '95 Xantia isn't in any way worn out after 150k miles, its engine starts first time and isn't smoky or rattly in the least. The seats in it are like new, very little sign of wear, the carpets are the same. All of the electrical items work. It has no rust perforation, besides the stone chips it has no rust at all.
Brodie, you can't compare your servicing costs with those of your friend's Xantia because he pays a garage to service his car and gets overcharged, where as you do your own servicing and don't pay labour charges. You probably get your parts cheaply as well. Worst case if I include the cost of the clutch, my servicing costs me £200 a year for the two cars, which are doing something like 30k miles between them.
You can argue all day about the safety of a full power braking system over a servo assist system, I prefer the Citroen system. It doesn't use a hydroscopic fluid so the system doesn't rust as much. It will still operate the brakes effectively with a large amount of air in it and the quality of the hydraulic pipes (plastic coated, 2 metals) are much better than the pipes that fail the first MOT that I've seen on many other cars.
I've replaced spheres, glow plugs, brake pads, brake discs. My '95 Xantia isn't in any way worn out after 150k miles, its engine starts first time and isn't smoky or rattly in the least. The seats in it are like new, very little sign of wear, the carpets are the same. All of the electrical items work. It has no rust perforation, besides the stone chips it has no rust at all.
Brodie, you can't compare your servicing costs with those of your friend's Xantia because he pays a garage to service his car and gets overcharged, where as you do your own servicing and don't pay labour charges. You probably get your parts cheaply as well. Worst case if I include the cost of the clutch, my servicing costs me £200 a year for the two cars, which are doing something like 30k miles between them.
You can argue all day about the safety of a full power braking system over a servo assist system, I prefer the Citroen system. It doesn't use a hydroscopic fluid so the system doesn't rust as much. It will still operate the brakes effectively with a large amount of air in it and the quality of the hydraulic pipes (plastic coated, 2 metals) are much better than the pipes that fail the first MOT that I've seen on many other cars.
Panjandrum - haven't had chance to look at it yet, but will do next weekend.
Oh and Kowalski - I forgot to mention I always get him cheap spares from places like GSF.
The biggest problem with his car is that when something goes wrong, he leaves it or he doesn't realise that something is wrong - he doesn't even do basic maintenance like checking oil/water/tyre pressures etc.
Like I said, "Probably great cars, as long as you have the knowledge/money to service them regularly"
And Steve, I take it you're American?
No wonder there is a little deep-seated resentment about Jap cars huh?
Oh and Kowalski - I forgot to mention I always get him cheap spares from places like GSF.
The biggest problem with his car is that when something goes wrong, he leaves it or he doesn't realise that something is wrong - he doesn't even do basic maintenance like checking oil/water/tyre pressures etc.
Like I said, "Probably great cars, as long as you have the knowledge/money to service them regularly"
And Steve, I take it you're American?
No wonder there is a little deep-seated resentment about Jap cars huh?
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Kowalski
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Ex 97 Xantia 1.9TD SX 144k
Ex 94 Xantia Dimension 1.9TD 199k
As I recall, America's biggest car manufacturer is Honda,
i.e. more Hondas are built in the US than any other make of car.
The US car industry went the same way ours did, unions demanded ever higher wages and were on strike, quality went down, cost cutting happened, they ended up trying to sell an inferior product expecting the customers to be patriotic. Its difficult to be patriotic on a wet morning when your car won't start...
Rover has the Union Flag on its boot lid.
i.e. more Hondas are built in the US than any other make of car.
The US car industry went the same way ours did, unions demanded ever higher wages and were on strike, quality went down, cost cutting happened, they ended up trying to sell an inferior product expecting the customers to be patriotic. Its difficult to be patriotic on a wet morning when your car won't start...
Rover has the Union Flag on its boot lid.