Hi all,
Further to post :-
http://www.andyspares.com/discussionfor ... C_ID=10775
I finally got a chance to look at the car and unscrewed the TDC sensor. I did all the work with the car warm.
1. I removed the TDC sensor and then started the car...no noise change, but rev counter dead.
2. Unplugged timing advance solenoid.....no noticable noise change
3. with above still uplugged, I then removed injector lift sensor plug with still no noise change.
So basically I've got no further and am completely lost.[V]
Notes:-
A) There is still a distinguishable noise difference between cold and warm condition. But instead of 'rattly then quiet' its now 'very rattly then just rattly'. Are the any places in Lancashire/West Yorkshire who can put it on a rigg to check the timing ?
B) I've also noticed the chamber where the dipstick goes in is really sludgey and this is concerning me. There's no apparent temp increase or water consumption so I'm hoping its just the cold weather and lack of long runs thats introduced a bit of condensation.....[:I]
C) I did mention in my original post that during summer the rev counter died for a few weeks then came back to life. Can the TDC sensor be out off calibration or something ?
Can anyone help as this is doing my head in!!
Synergie 1.9TD excess noise cont'd.
Moderator: RichardW
Hi, I am pretty sure my cold start device is faulty - however, it seems to give me more power when the engine is warm, (I always did think that the car felt more powerful when lukewarm but before running temp had been reached). I can live with the higher idle speed; Will the advanced ignition timing cause any engine damage? If so, I'll get it fixed!
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
If you disconnected the TDC sensor and the rev counter stopped then the injector lift sensor would seem not to be working or its signal is not getting through.
The rev counter should work with either the TDC sensor or the injector lift sensor connected.
Look for some obvious stuff first, check the multi plug connection to the engine ECU for signs of corrosion.
Make sure there are no trapped wires as a result of having the box out.
If while the engine is running you unplug the solenoid valve and the engine doesn't get any noisier, then there is no attempt being made by the ECU at advancing the timing, because with that unplugged the engine doesn't get any noisier as it is then running at maximum advance.
With Either the TDC sensor or the injector lift sensor connected the ECU does make a stab at correcting the timing because there is a very noticable reduction in the diesel knock, you must have the engine running when listening for these changes as you unplug the various connectors, any change in the sounds being made will then be easily noticed.
If the wiring and plugs are ok, you need to get the lift sensor tested, if thats ok the ECU may be at fault.
Dave
The rev counter should work with either the TDC sensor or the injector lift sensor connected.
Look for some obvious stuff first, check the multi plug connection to the engine ECU for signs of corrosion.
Make sure there are no trapped wires as a result of having the box out.
If while the engine is running you unplug the solenoid valve and the engine doesn't get any noisier, then there is no attempt being made by the ECU at advancing the timing, because with that unplugged the engine doesn't get any noisier as it is then running at maximum advance.
With Either the TDC sensor or the injector lift sensor connected the ECU does make a stab at correcting the timing because there is a very noticable reduction in the diesel knock, you must have the engine running when listening for these changes as you unplug the various connectors, any change in the sounds being made will then be easily noticed.
If the wiring and plugs are ok, you need to get the lift sensor tested, if thats ok the ECU may be at fault.
Dave
Thanks for spotting the post Dave.
The only wire I could assume that was affected by the cutch change was the TDC plug which I've verified to be okay.
I think the ECU is behind a plate on the OSF inner wing. If I start unplugging things I'm not going to screw the immobiliser system am I ?[xx(]
Since this is getting a bit more in depth, can you help out by advising those items I marked up on my bay pictures :-
1. Cold start device to trigger rev increase?
2. Dunno ?
3. Dunno ? ( THROTTLE SENSOR? )
4. Connector to something underneath pump ( FUEL TIMING ADVANCE ?)
5. Connector to item 11 ( SHUT-OFF SOLENOID?)
6. Connector to item 3 ( THROTTLE SENSOR? )
7. Dunno ?
8. Dunno ?
9. Connector to No2? injector ( NEEDLE LIFT SENSOR )
10. Dunno?
11. Shut-off solenoid ?
12. Dunno?
13. TDC Sensor ?
14. Dunno?
15. Cylinder device on accelerator cable ? what for?
http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.jarvo/top-bay.JPG
http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.jarvo/side-bay.JPG
I still don't get how this ECU adjusts my fueling timing. I can appreciate it 'switches' it from cold to warm by tripping off the solenoid. But I didn't think it had a variable setting that changed as the engine temp gradually changed.
Plus...still on the lookout for East Lancs/West Yorks diesel specialists if anyone knows one for testing needle lift sensors...
The only wire I could assume that was affected by the cutch change was the TDC plug which I've verified to be okay.
I think the ECU is behind a plate on the OSF inner wing. If I start unplugging things I'm not going to screw the immobiliser system am I ?[xx(]
Since this is getting a bit more in depth, can you help out by advising those items I marked up on my bay pictures :-
1. Cold start device to trigger rev increase?
2. Dunno ?
3. Dunno ? ( THROTTLE SENSOR? )
4. Connector to something underneath pump ( FUEL TIMING ADVANCE ?)
5. Connector to item 11 ( SHUT-OFF SOLENOID?)
6. Connector to item 3 ( THROTTLE SENSOR? )
7. Dunno ?
8. Dunno ?
9. Connector to No2? injector ( NEEDLE LIFT SENSOR )
10. Dunno?
11. Shut-off solenoid ?
12. Dunno?
13. TDC Sensor ?
14. Dunno?
15. Cylinder device on accelerator cable ? what for?
http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.jarvo/top-bay.JPG
http://freespace.virgin.net/ian.jarvo/side-bay.JPG
I still don't get how this ECU adjusts my fueling timing. I can appreciate it 'switches' it from cold to warm by tripping off the solenoid. But I didn't think it had a variable setting that changed as the engine temp gradually changed.
Plus...still on the lookout for East Lancs/West Yorks diesel specialists if anyone knows one for testing needle lift sensors...
-
Richard Gallagher
- Posts: 803
- Joined: 31 Oct 2001, 02:36
- Location: South Bucks
- My Cars:
Just as an possible pointer, when my 97 TD Xantia (Same engine) was just a couple of months old it suffered with problems on the needle lift sensor, which kept causing the 'K' light to illuminate.
After the dealer had tried all they know without success, they contacted Citroen technical who advised that they to replace the connection on top of the engine which runs the the needle lift sensor with a 'Raycam'? connection. Basically solder it and then shrink wrap plastic to protect it.
Citroen had apparently found this connector to be a common cause of problems in this area.
After the dealer had tried all they know without success, they contacted Citroen technical who advised that they to replace the connection on top of the engine which runs the the needle lift sensor with a 'Raycam'? connection. Basically solder it and then shrink wrap plastic to protect it.
Citroen had apparently found this connector to be a common cause of problems in this area.
In the history of this post I had previously explained in July 04 I had two week bad spell where it went funny.
In more detail :-
Started off by....not starting in the warm ambient of St John de Monts[8D]. A day later we had to urgently drive all the way home due to a death in the family[:(]. It managed a 14hr[:0] drive home ending in Manchester @4.30am only stopping for the ferry and a tank of fuel at Dover. On the way home from Dover the rev counter died but with no noticeable effect on the engine/noise.
For the next week and a half in August it intermittantly wouldn't start and the rev counter worked intermittantly but not in any parity with the starting problem. I thought it was an immobiliser problem.
On two occasions it didn't start and the 'K' light flickered on.
On one distinct occasion it started with the 'K' light flickering but sounded like a bag of nails, but about 5mins into the journey its light suddenly went off and the noise stopped ( probabaly reached temp )
All the above then disppeared in August and the car has been okay...until the December clutch change.
It does appear from yours and Dave post that the lift sensor is not communicating with ECU but I have now way of checking other than pulling plugs and cleaning the grubby connections...
In more detail :-
Started off by....not starting in the warm ambient of St John de Monts[8D]. A day later we had to urgently drive all the way home due to a death in the family[:(]. It managed a 14hr[:0] drive home ending in Manchester @4.30am only stopping for the ferry and a tank of fuel at Dover. On the way home from Dover the rev counter died but with no noticeable effect on the engine/noise.
For the next week and a half in August it intermittantly wouldn't start and the rev counter worked intermittantly but not in any parity with the starting problem. I thought it was an immobiliser problem.
On two occasions it didn't start and the 'K' light flickered on.
On one distinct occasion it started with the 'K' light flickering but sounded like a bag of nails, but about 5mins into the journey its light suddenly went off and the noise stopped ( probabaly reached temp )
All the above then disppeared in August and the car has been okay...until the December clutch change.
It does appear from yours and Dave post that the lift sensor is not communicating with ECU but I have now way of checking other than pulling plugs and cleaning the grubby connections...
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
1. EGR vacuum electrovalve
2. Coolant level sensor
3. Throttle position potentiometer (engine load)
4. Timing advance solenoid valve conn.
5. Immobiliser conn.
6. Throttle pot. conn.
7. Coolant temp. sensor (ECU or gauge ?)
8. Bitron coolant temp sensor (aircon)
9. Injector lift sensor conn.
10. Pump MPC (manifold pressure compensator)
11. Stop solenoid (under steel cover, can't be seen)
12. Don't know
13. TDC sensor
14. Coolant temp. sensor (ECU or gauge ?)
15. Accelerator cable (what the cylinder does is beyond me, probably a spring mechanism to prevent excess force on the plastic throttle lever)
Temperature related idle speed (and also for aircon) is vacuum controlled via ECU and electrovalve, is either on or off, not proportional, look for blue solenoid valve on near side bulkhead area and vacuum unit (near vacuum pump) with cable down to back of injection pump.
When you look at pics of this engine its clear its had a lot of water round it, especially check the electrcal connectors in these areas.
Don't touch the immoiliser connector (5), and only unplug the ECU when everything is switched off.
Dave
2. Coolant level sensor
3. Throttle position potentiometer (engine load)
4. Timing advance solenoid valve conn.
5. Immobiliser conn.
6. Throttle pot. conn.
7. Coolant temp. sensor (ECU or gauge ?)
8. Bitron coolant temp sensor (aircon)
9. Injector lift sensor conn.
10. Pump MPC (manifold pressure compensator)
11. Stop solenoid (under steel cover, can't be seen)
12. Don't know
13. TDC sensor
14. Coolant temp. sensor (ECU or gauge ?)
15. Accelerator cable (what the cylinder does is beyond me, probably a spring mechanism to prevent excess force on the plastic throttle lever)
Temperature related idle speed (and also for aircon) is vacuum controlled via ECU and electrovalve, is either on or off, not proportional, look for blue solenoid valve on near side bulkhead area and vacuum unit (near vacuum pump) with cable down to back of injection pump.
When you look at pics of this engine its clear its had a lot of water round it, especially check the electrcal connectors in these areas.
Don't touch the immoiliser connector (5), and only unplug the ECU when everything is switched off.
Dave
Hi all,
Just got chance to have another look and take off the ECU etc.
Nothing seems crusty/damaged so I'm dreading the end result could be the lift sensor which means an £150 quid no3 injector is needed.
To recap though :-
1. The rev counter does work, but occasionally goes off or out of synch by a -1000rpm.
2. No 'K' light on the dash is appearing.
3. When I unscrew the TDC sensor it sounds like a bag of nails
4. When I plug in the TDC sensor it does go quieter...but not like it used to be.
5. When I unplug either the lift sensor or the advance solenoid I can't notice any change.
So the conclusion is its the lift sensor, because the TDC outage does effect a change.
I have put a meter across the lift sensor pins an get a reading of 96ohms. Therefore focusing entirely on this lift sensor, is there any way to specifically test in isolation whether this sensor works.
Also, if its proven the lift sensor is at fault, can anyone confirm whether the no3 injector is the same as any other 97-99 XUD engine, ie, can I get a scrapyard one off a Xantia/406 etc?
Thx
Just got chance to have another look and take off the ECU etc.
Nothing seems crusty/damaged so I'm dreading the end result could be the lift sensor which means an £150 quid no3 injector is needed.
To recap though :-
1. The rev counter does work, but occasionally goes off or out of synch by a -1000rpm.
2. No 'K' light on the dash is appearing.
3. When I unscrew the TDC sensor it sounds like a bag of nails
4. When I plug in the TDC sensor it does go quieter...but not like it used to be.
5. When I unplug either the lift sensor or the advance solenoid I can't notice any change.
So the conclusion is its the lift sensor, because the TDC outage does effect a change.
I have put a meter across the lift sensor pins an get a reading of 96ohms. Therefore focusing entirely on this lift sensor, is there any way to specifically test in isolation whether this sensor works.
Also, if its proven the lift sensor is at fault, can anyone confirm whether the no3 injector is the same as any other 97-99 XUD engine, ie, can I get a scrapyard one off a Xantia/406 etc?
Thx
-
Richard Gallagher
- Posts: 803
- Joined: 31 Oct 2001, 02:36
- Location: South Bucks
- My Cars:
-
Dave Burns
- Posts: 1915
- Joined: 14 May 2001, 05:30
- Location: United Kingdom
- My Cars:
- x 2
Something well amiss here, I can't see how the advance solenoid can be unplugged and result in no change of engine note, yet the TDC sensor when unplugged produces a sound like a bag of nails.
When the solenoid valve is taken off line the timing should swing to full advance by default, (sounding like a bag of chisles not mere nails [:D]) if as you say there is no change it could only mean that its not working, BUT if as you also say when the TDC sensor is off line there is a deffinate change, sounding like a bag of nails, then the solenoid valve must be working because it is needed to make the actual adustment to the timing when you unplug the TDC sensor.
All I can think of at the moment is that the solenoid valve might not be working and the change in engine sound could be brought about by other devices, they could only be the fast idle electrovalve and much less likely the EGR valve, see if either of those two are being actioned by the ECU some how as a result of unplugging the TDC sensor, or just unplug them to take them out of the equasion.
Dave
When the solenoid valve is taken off line the timing should swing to full advance by default, (sounding like a bag of chisles not mere nails [:D]) if as you say there is no change it could only mean that its not working, BUT if as you also say when the TDC sensor is off line there is a deffinate change, sounding like a bag of nails, then the solenoid valve must be working because it is needed to make the actual adustment to the timing when you unplug the TDC sensor.
All I can think of at the moment is that the solenoid valve might not be working and the change in engine sound could be brought about by other devices, they could only be the fast idle electrovalve and much less likely the EGR valve, see if either of those two are being actioned by the ECU some how as a result of unplugging the TDC sensor, or just unplug them to take them out of the equasion.
Dave
<font color="navy"><font face="Arial">During last week I noticed a thread in this forum about a list of Citroen specialists in the UK. I saw one in Stockport nr Manchester which suited me , so I got on the phone and asked if they could do a diagnostic.
The bloke ( Dave ) wanted £25 dabs for doing a code read and have a prod around, which I thought was pretty reasonable...at least to help me focus in on whether I have to buy a new lift sensor or not.
The codes thrown up were plentyful and very spurious. As well as the lift sensor, it was saying the temp was 140°C and the supply voltage from the battery was 4.6 volts !!!. On the temp & lift sensors the current was zero. He had a look at all the fuses and tested the battery. He concluded that a) the battery was low and needed replacing and b) there had to be either a broken feed or earth to the lift & temp / volt sensors.
Bearing in mind this car is a Synergie, the engine is buried under the bulkhead and hard to access for cabling/wiring. Can Dave Burns or anyone else comment about what earth connections I should be looking for on this car?
I know there is the body to the battery neg, and the gearbox connection, but on a wiring diagram I've found ( http://www.autoelectric.ru/auto/peugeot/806/dhx/dhx.htm ) there seems to be two other earth conns from the main engine loom. Can someone verify the drawing and tell me where I should be able to trace earth connections M015 & M016
I'm ready to strip out all the air inlets and battery tray assy for another look. At this moment the gearbox only has one cable screwed on the top of its housing. Perhaps M015 & M016 are also supposed to be fixed at this point ???</font id="Arial"></font id="navy">
The bloke ( Dave ) wanted £25 dabs for doing a code read and have a prod around, which I thought was pretty reasonable...at least to help me focus in on whether I have to buy a new lift sensor or not.
The codes thrown up were plentyful and very spurious. As well as the lift sensor, it was saying the temp was 140°C and the supply voltage from the battery was 4.6 volts !!!. On the temp & lift sensors the current was zero. He had a look at all the fuses and tested the battery. He concluded that a) the battery was low and needed replacing and b) there had to be either a broken feed or earth to the lift & temp / volt sensors.
Bearing in mind this car is a Synergie, the engine is buried under the bulkhead and hard to access for cabling/wiring. Can Dave Burns or anyone else comment about what earth connections I should be looking for on this car?
I know there is the body to the battery neg, and the gearbox connection, but on a wiring diagram I've found ( http://www.autoelectric.ru/auto/peugeot/806/dhx/dhx.htm ) there seems to be two other earth conns from the main engine loom. Can someone verify the drawing and tell me where I should be able to trace earth connections M015 & M016
I'm ready to strip out all the air inlets and battery tray assy for another look. At this moment the gearbox only has one cable screwed on the top of its housing. Perhaps M015 & M016 are also supposed to be fixed at this point ???</font id="Arial"></font id="navy">